Cost/Frequency of Extinguisher Inspections

[The Reiver]

Don't forget price of spare parts used, some companies make a lot of money from tamper indicators, "o" rings, swivel horns, extinguisher signs, wall mounting, etc etc.

Yup........Up here it pays for the derv, travelling time and wages.

I only wish I was a registered charity like some on here.

[Psuedonym]

Chubb and it's trade subsidiary Thomas Glover produce their extinguishers in China having shut the Ferndale plant in Wales (which dates back over 80 years to the days of Pyrene) a few years ago. If you want an extinguisher from the Mighty UTC that isn't Chinese you need to buy Gloria - which is being used in place of the former UK made Chubb kit in their Scandinavian companies. Gloria kit is replacing the Spanish made extinguishers they sell through their spanish wing Parsi SA. They are introducing UK colour coding to Spain as well with the new Parsi range.

The big difference between their stuff and everyone else's is that they own the whole factory lock stock and barrel and can thus ensure the quality is the same whilst profiting (even more) from the labour savings. Most other companies who use Chinese kit buy it as one of many customers of an existing separate Chinese country.

UK colour coding? Does that mean they are likely to adopt the rest of BS & EN3 too?! Great! Safe hotels in Espanol !?!?

[Psuedonym]

Don't forget price of spare parts used, some companies make a lot of money from tamper indicators, "o" rings, swivel horns, extinguisher signs, wall mounting, etc etc.

Yup........Up here it pays for the derv, travelling time and wages.

I only wish I was a registered charity like some on here.

Registered and Certified mate! Completely bloody Sectioned !!

[Psuedonym]

service engineer, sorry Technician,

Taking the pee? If it's good enough for British Standards it's good enough for me.

will be looking for a further sales opportunity to boost his comm. when he pops along to service your ever increasing stock.

You could look at it another way.  A "service engineer, sorry Technician" can advise the customer that a particular risk is not covered and should be covered. Nothing wrong with giving good advice.

PS. "service engineer, sorry Technician" only joshing.

No worries mate!

And I agree with you entirely regarding risk assessing. That is a sign of a good engineer, checking every room, looking for potential problems, incorrect fire cover for risk, ensuring safety/MOE signage is correct etc etc (you know the score).
My little quip was regarding the UTC/Tyco engineers of this world who would sell you their granny to meet a target but mainly as a warning re the original post to keep an eye on his stock levels and not be dragged into accepting inappropriate "advice" or "recommendations".

[AnthonyB]

I would also agree that an engineer saying you need more extinguishers isn't automatically just out for the sales aspect. They should survey and risk assess. It's just as bad when you find that the ext company guy is ignorant over the kit he uses and fails to advise a change in type or additional item as it is to find those that have done a 'sales assessment' and put a 2 kilo CO2 in every room, a 3 kilo Powder in the tea room and 52A's worth of waters in a 250 sq m building (guess who).

Some people servicing & selling extinguishers don't know fully about F risks and instead of recommending Wet Chemical will bung in an ABC Powder not realising that it's useless and the only reason Powder was used in the olden days was because it was normally BC Powder and did have some effect on the cooking oil (BC Powder & Wet Chem are alkaline and can saponify, ABC powder is acidic and can't)

[nim]

Don't forget price of spare parts used, some companies make a lot of money from tamper indicators, "o" rings, swivel horns, extinguisher signs, wall mounting, etc etc.

Whilst I understand where you are coming from, what you should really be doing is look at the bigger picture. Yes some companies do charge too much. Charging a pound for a tamper tag may seem extortionate but what was the total price for the job, is what you should really be asking.  How long did the Service Technician spend maintaining the extinguishers, surveying the premises, installing new equipment and maybe even how long to get to and between jobs.

Today I have spent 3.5 hours driving, 6 hours servicing, 5 jobs and done 140 miles. The job is very physically demanding. Try lugging between 30 and 100 extinguishers all day every day. Do you want a bad back, dodgy hips and knees? I think we deserve to be paid well if we do a good job.

Maybe you should ask yourself, how much do you get paid for an hour of your labour, what does your employer charge the customer/client and what did you do for the money?

Whether you know or not we all charge different prices.

Some will go in at a silly attendance fee, silly unit cost fee and make the realistic cost of doing the job on consumables and parts.

Some will go in at a realistic attendance fee and not charge for consumables knowing that they will be used.

There will be all sorts of variations in between. None of these are right or wrong. Just what they are.

[richard-derby]

hi Jiff
im new to this site as well, email me and we can chat
looking at the £4000 plus extras i feel you are being ripped off. i had this at a clients site ( another large non state school) and they took my advise and saved a shed load of money.

email me we can chat

thanks
richard

[chairman101]

British Standards set the requirment for how and what is done in a service, there is no legal requirment in the UK to have any fire fighting equipment, however your insurance company would in most cases reject any claim or refuse to insure you if you failed to have any equipment or if it was not correctly laid out under BS. Each engineer must be qualified i.e. have passed an exam which has trained them in BS etc. As for posting about the rental, like anything, are you getting VFM ? If you are then the price is worth it. In response to the 'where they are built' bit. There is only one company in the UK that still make/supply their own equipment and that is Nu-Swift. (based somewhere up north, Yorkshire I think). All other UK supplies come from China etc. and like anything you get what you pay for. I know from knowledge the difference, I also know somebody who has seen the difference. They had a fire at the factory where they worked. The new owner bought the China stuff because of price but they still had a few Nu-Swift units left. In a massive fire the only units that worked effectifly were the Nu-Swift ones and they were nearly ten years old (best of British etc.) and these allowed them to get out of the factory allive. As I said, you get what you pay for, the same as any product, how many times have were been told about the stuff we bought on the cheap and 'it only worked once and even then not properly', or 'I had to take it back becuse it did not work at all', most of which as always is built/made in China etc. With chldren do you want to take a chance that it will not work the one and only time you use it. Rolls Royce or Kia? Money or possable faulty equipment ... I know which one I would have (and guess what I have in my own house)?? Lastly I have done some digging, BS requires equipment to be serviced once a year, each unit has a life span depending on type (most will last between 5 and 10 years max) and in the UK the only bit of law is something called the Reglatory Reform (fire) act of 2005 and it clearly lays down one bit of law only, this is all companies must have a fire saftey risk assesment, this is the only law in the UK... hope this is all ok

[Galeon]

As with all things you are buying , no different to a shop , the price tag is an invitation for you to part with this amount for the goods , it is not set in stone . So the guy wants 59p for a mars bar , you can of course bid him on it. He will or wont , hence thats where your RRP recommended retail price comes in.
Some people want the comfort feeling of a big multinational , some don't , as long as you get apples for apples you pays your money.

However all business is about trust , so when you find a good firm , hang on to them , times are changing the contractor is now in a strong position , I have always been fair to the people I have worked for , and I expect them to be the same.
A good friend of mine quoted some work at the local golf club , and low and behold they moaned about his price ,(he wanted what he quoted) but when he queried his membership fee ,that was not negotiable , cake and eat it springs to mind.

[AnthonyB]

Firstly, an extinguishers lifespan is not only 5 years (unless you like ripping people off by selling new kit when only an extended service is due) and can easily exceed 10.

UK Fire still manufacture and sell their own equipment in the UK, I've been to the zinc founders in the West Midlands that makes the Britannia headcaps.

Firemark (FPS Bristol) are a UK manufacturer.

Amerex are US and just as high a quality as UK manufacture if not more so.

Gloria, Total & Bavaria are German and as high quality as UK.

Nu Swift stopped full UK manufacture in the mid-1980's when French Sicli models were widely introduced and now has Chinese models and components as well as a (decreasing) smattering of EU stuff. I agree their pre 1983 stuff was quality (& their E600x powders & E5000 BCF post this until they ceased production) and reliable even if not serviced as often as it should, but that was all in the past - they are no better now than any comparable product with the BSEN kitemark.

If the factory fire case is fact, then it's a Trading Standards matter for the extinguishers (if serviced) shouldn't have failed and legal action is required. The factory should also come under close scrutiny for possible enforcement action under the RRO as (as has been mentioned in other threads) the escape of the occupant's shouldn't have come down to whether one extinguisher discharge was more effective than another one- unless of course they stayed fighting the fire with extinguisher chains longer than they should (as was once promoted by Nu Swift with their Universal Fire Units E1308 & E1408 which were an extinguisher, bucket and 6 spare charges to allow "the extinguisher to be back in action in 30 seconds and allow fire fighting to continue as long as pressure charges and water are available").

£150- 250 for a standard extinguisher cannot be justified. However the bottom dropping out of the market due to poor quality far east imports is not acceptable either. High quality far east imports cannot be knocked - I haven't encountered any problems with Chubb stuff since manufacture moved from Wales to China (although it's early days) but then again they own the factory lock, stock & barrel so can control QA tightly.

Mandatory kite-marking for UK sale would be nice, but with our love affair with the EU could never happen, so we will be stuck with CE only imports for the foreseeable future

[nim]

In response to the 'where they are built' bit. There is only one company in the UK that still make/supply their own equipment and that is Nu-Swift. (based somewhere up north, Yorkshire I think). All other UK supplies come from China etc. and like anything you get what you pay for. I know from knowledge the difference, I also know somebody who has seen the difference. They had a fire at the factory where they worked. The new owner bought the China stuff because of price but they still had a few Nu-Swift units left. In a massive fire the only units that worked effectifly were the Nu-Swift ones and they were nearly ten years old (best of British etc.) and these allowed them to get out of the factory allive. As I said, you get what you pay for, the same as any product, how many times have were been told about the stuff we bought on the cheap and 'it only worked once and even then not properly', or 'I had to take it back becuse it did not work at all', most of which as always is built/made in China etc. With chldren do you want to take a chance that it will not work the one and only time you use it. Rolls Royce or Kia? Money or possable faulty equipment ... I know which one I would have (and guess what I have in my own house)??

I am pretty sure Nu-Swift stopped making most extinguishers in th UK over ten years ago and the majority of extinguishers were made in the Sicli (by name and Sicli by nature  as Bill Thompson used to say) factory and imported from France from about fifteen to twenty years ago. Now I think Nu-Swift make their extinguishers in China as well. And as for quality. Used to be true as they over engineered everything. Went out the window when they introduced the 1377 and 1320 in about 1988ish.

[nim]

I haven't encountered any problems with Chubb stuff since manufacture moved from Wales to China (although it's early days) but then again they own the factory lock, stock & barrel so can control QA tightly.

I would suggest that there have been two problems at least with Chubb/Thomas Glover extinguishers manufactured in China. The first was the production of hoses five years ago that were subject to cracking/perishing. Thomas Glover have rectified this over time with replacement hoses.

The second (and this is most definately a quality control issue) is the overpressure of TG's stored pressure range. They have sent shedloads of extinguishers over here where the gauge needle is either in the green but so close to the red overpressure section that I am not comfortable supplying them so send them back to TG's for replacement or the gauge needle is in the red overpressure section. TG's have written to me almost accusing me of being paranoid because the gauge needle is in the "operable range and are perfectly acceptable". They also told me that I was the only person complaining. I can't believe that but I have seen enough overpressure extinguishers in the field to know that some companies/service technicians can't be bothered to send them back.

The overpressure as I see it is caused by someone inexperienced pressurising the extinguishers on the production line. They have obviously been pressurising water extinguishers one minute (where as most would know you can slightly overpressurise because the pressure has to dissolve/equalise through the whole cylinder contents).The next minute the twit is pressurizing 10,000 powder extinguishers and thinks that to save time they can slightly overpressurise powder extinguishers as well. The trouble is that the needle won't stabilise and the person doing quality control can't be bothered to empty them and start over again so just send them over here and let us deal with the problem.

TG/Chubb in my opinion have been very lax when it comes to quality control on this one issue

And before anyone tells me that I can turn a water or foam upside down and release the overpressure. Yes I know.