Fire alarms in further education colleges

[The Colonel]

Gentlemen

Help an old git who cant see the wood for the trees. Trying to recall the level of fire alarm in a further education college with studants from 16 to 70 years of age, no sleeping just offices, lecture rooms and all the usuale facilities. Maxinum 4 floors in height. Cant even rember where to look.

Off for another caffine infusion to see if that helps the grey matter

[Lester]

Surely there is no defined 'level' and that it would be an outcome of site specific FRA taking into account partial occupation outside core hours, potential for unobserved ignition, compensating for inadequate structural protection etc.  A canary and a couple of torches might be sufficient. Do visit the office on your next trip across the border to civilisation xx

[jokar]

Have a look at the tables in BS 5839 which recommends systems for particular premises types.  Probably a cat M system, if a 9 to 5 place unless you want to cover specific risk areas or lone working arrangements.  If the establishment has hours outside of normal hours perhaps an L4 or L3 system.

[The Colonel]

Lester, Did try calling the office this afternoon, but the boys downstairs suggested that top floor was on spanish siesta time or were you all out prohibiting somewhere?

The grey cells started working not long after the post and Joker the tables in 5839 can be a bit light weight in some areas and having looked at the design section I think a L3 system would be best suited to this particular building. If the building in question had been in Lesters patch I think they would be gathering eveidance taking statments and taking the big stick out of its cabinet.

During a risk assessment came across amongst others
Locked exits; multiple fire extinguishers tampered with and only examined once a year; fire alarms not tested on a regular basis; smoke and fire stop doors with gaps you could put fingers through; lack of records and very little fire safety management; disabled persons above ground level with lack of evacuation stratagy; no staff training, must stop there as I could fill the page.

Also found a document published to help teachers on teachernet that suggests a L2 system.

If anyone has come across good inexpensive ways of stopping students tampering with fire extinguishers or at least discourageing them I would be gratefull for your tips. Had thought of wireing them up to 240 volts but the Health and Safety manger wasnt to keen on the idea, thought they may loose to many staff!

[Lester]

Greetings Colonel
Not Spanish siesta time but off sick.  I'm glad this one is not on our patch though.  Does sound potential for Article 32 (1) offences.  With thought to extinguishers I recently advised a school to remove them to staff rooms and offices or areas that are to some extent supervised.  This has cut down their recharging bill and no one has died yet.

[Paul2886]

Greetings Colonel
Not Spanish siesta time but off sick.  I'm glad this one is not on our patch though.  Does sound potential for Article 32 (1) offences.  With thought to extinguishers I recently advised a school to remove them to staff rooms and offices or areas that are to some extent supervised.  This has cut down their recharging bill and no one has died yet.

Quite agree and in my opinion the only sensible solutuion

[Chris Houston]

all the problems you listed are normal for these places. Sorry to be so controversially honest. With regards to solving the fire extingusher problem: if it is in a nice area then protective covers might do the trick, if it is in a dodgy areabthen staff only area plus the need for weekly inspections might be the solition.

[John Dragon]

One of the simplest and cheapest ways to cut down on tampering is to put a clear, light gauge plastic bag over the top of the extinguisher. The staff can see through it to check the tamper seal and the morons have to pull the bag off to discharge the extinguisher.
Its not high tech, fool proof or hugely reliable, but it does deter the lowest level of vandalism.
Alternatively we also use Jonesco cabinets with alarms fitted, costly option though!

[Martin]

I had similar  problem with large Inner london comp school. lots of false alarms and vandalism/misuse of extinguishers.
We sorted out who would be best placed to use extinguishers, (Lab Technicians caretakers etc )trained them and moved the extinguishers from near final exits to near the trained users. Not ideal but I could phrase the RA to justify this course.

On a different  tack we also had to put a delay on break glasses and put a lot of effort into rapid investigation to cut down on number of false evacuations FB attendance etc. Easy to write the system but as usual when we checked the investigations were not being managed properly. (Too slow, too cursory didn't have key to area so assumed all was well etc!) I stil don't know how to properly cure these sorts of problems.

[Chris Houston]

we also had to put a delay on break glasses

I am always very nervous about that.  If someone finds a real fire and the fire alarm call points doesn't appear to work, they might go to find another call point.

How much delay did you have, were there signs explaining the delay (for the benefit of those who can read english, at least).

Did you hear any opinons from the fire service, or insurers about this?

Did you try alarmed protective covers?

[The Colonel]

Some good ideas on ext covers, have found some on the net especialy for extinguishers for as little as £3.50 + vat, not bad. With some resiting should be able to keep the costs down and students frustrated.

There does not seem to be a problem at the moment with break glass points apart from in one building they seem to be different colours. Students as part of their training in decoration have painted break glass points, signs, emergency light lens covers etc. The mind boggles when you think that staff are allowing this to happen and dont know what affect it will have when thier students work in other locations. Just goes to show that lack of knowledge extends to the trainers as well.

A small number of staff seem to care but the rest seem to loose interest

[Martin]

Reply to Chris H

Delay on break glasses.

We had so many false alarms that evacuation discipline was collapsing. Some people were hanging around inside, others were ambling slowly towards assembly points. 3 minutes delay was fitted, second break glass instant alarm. We had tried fitting "screecher" covers, moving vulnerable call points, some (admittedly limited) cctv to "nail" culprits. This provided some limited temporary gain but then in one week there were 8 false alarms. A few culprits were suspended and I think one was transferred to a referral unit. I  don't recollect telling the insurers (oops) but the fire authority reluctantly accepted we didn't have much alternative. We had to review annually. It might have just been a lot of copy cat behaviour in a school which might go out of fashion in favour of some other teacher baiting tactic. In which case we would have to remove the delay. I remember having writer's cramp from writing the justification.

Good point about notices advising the alarm won't sound but no we didn't put any up.

(We did try 240v but the girls used it to torture any boy they didn't like.)