Listed Building

[The Colonel]

Gentlem

Picture if you can a listed building in the centre of an historic city with the following; Cellar, ground, 1st and 2nd floors, width 11m x 15 deep

Cellar; used as a stores for an electrical contractor with shelves full of light fittings, plugs, cables and any kind of part that a sparky might need, extends under most of ground floor.

Ground floor; central front access door leading left through another door into newsagents (40% of ground floor), from front door straight through another door into reception area of company that occupies remaining area of ground along with 1st & 2nd floors. Access to 1st floor is via spiral stairs from reception (reception not staffed) to landing with the obligitory photo copier etc then via normal open stairs to 2nd floor. Reception area has alternate exit to rear of premises, alternate escape from 2nd floor via rope ladder in box under front window ledge. Yes rope ladder thats been in place for 20 years and not been out. Travel to exit from furthest point on 2nd floor via stairs is 24m to point where you choose front or rear exit.

Seperation between cellar and ground not 60 mins only floor boards and the seperation between shop etc is also suspect. Fire alarm fitted but automatic detection on 2nd floor only.

Thoughts so far are; upgrade fire alarm to L2 with smoke detection throughout premises. Seprate cellar from ground with 60 mins FR. All equipment removed from 1st floor landing and doors self closing. Seperate occupancies where possible with 60 minutes FR if not possible increase alarm to L1. Subject to these and good management the additional travel should not be a problem?

It may be possible to fit alternate means of escape to rear of building but with all the different consents requirered this will take months to approve if at all.

I would be gratefull for your views on this one as it is not good at the present altough the office company regignise they have a problem and that it needs work

[kurnal]

So no problem then!

Leaving MOE from cellar aside cos you havn't covered that, can you enclose the stair between first and second at the first floor level in such a way to give a choice of routes- spiral or the aternative?

Presumably ground floor MOE is ok even though basement is below and unprotected- any problem there could be improved with detection, though obviously 1 hr wuld be better.

Presumably first floor MOE is ok because they have a spiral and an alternative route, having to pass the open spiral cold be a problem but could be sorted with smoke detection on ground floor, enclosure would be better

Second floor is the problem. They will need at least one doors worth of fire separation to the stair to give a choice of routes. If thats impossible- you could take it out of use or provide a water mist system on the lower floors?

As for the rope ladder I should jump the rounds.

[The Colonel]

Kurnal

Escape from the cellar in one direction only but within travel recomendations, used for storage only and the access door is right next to the rear ground exit door.

It might have been the way I set things out but first and second floors have no alternate exit until you reach the base of the spiral stairs at ground level, the spiral stairs is an accomodation stair.

Ground floor not to bad means of escape but I am still recomending 1 hour to basement and detection.

I agree that 2nd floor is the problem but being a listed building with single stair and no alternate I am looking at L2 alarm possibly L1 with removal of items from 1st floor landing and self closing doors at 1st floor. Enclosing stairs to 2nd floor isnt going to help as thats the escape route. I think early warning via AFD, upgrade fire resistance where possible and sterile 1st floor landing should be ok to allow for the extra travel to ground level.

With regard to the rope ladder the last time I jumped the rounds of a ladder it broke into pieces whilst I was at about 1st floor level against a drill tower, my collegue footing the ladder almost did himself a miscief laughing whilst I ended up in a pile of broken wood, strange but they withdrew our wooden short extension ladders after that!!

[CivvyFSO]

Why not use the second floor as the storage?

[The Colonel]

Unfortunatly moving the storage up to 2nd and 2nd floor office out is not an option. Had a quick chat with the landlord this morning who just happens to own two of the companies in the premises. Basement could be cleared as he thinks that there are other locations for storage and as he owns the electrical contractors an L2 system is being designed as I write. Upgrading the basement to 60 FR is also on the cards, better take protective head gear when I meet both landlord and client on site on Friday

[CivvyFSO]

I am generally comfortable with 30 minutes to any basement with detection. A true 60 minute ceiling is quite a pain to achieve when modifying from an existing timber floor. People need to be out of this particular building way before even a 30 minute floor is breaking through.

[The Colonel]

I must admit a reasonable 30 minute ceiling with detection would be acceptable especially as they may clear the cellar completly exept for normal electrical incoming supply, and best of all early detection should have them standing in the street long before the exit route is compromised.

One thing about old city and town centre properties they are a pain without reasonable AFD

[CivvyFSO]

The second floor really is a problem. I could imagine visiting that one and having to decide whether a prohibition is required. I know of a similar sounding premises in this area where there is a restriction on the use of the 2nd floor. (Storage, and toilet) There is also a 3rd floor which is totally prohibited. But the fire loading is quite high in this premises.

The problem is not 24m travel distance, it is 24m downwards, potentially through smoke.

[kurnal]

Any chance of a door through to the next door property from the second floor? Its always undesirable but sometimes the only solution- Yorks full of em.

[CivvyFSO]

Undesirable indeed, but with proper management and a solid agreement in place it could be making the best of a bad job. If the people next door are unwilling, it may be possible to address it by mentioning that they may be in a very similar position, and the door swings both ways, so to speak.

[The Colonel]

Civvy/kurnal
Must admit my thoughts when I sat and had a good look at things was that this is bordering on prohibition if left as is but the tenant and landlord are willing to take rapid action to try and avoid any notice on the 2nd floor.

The door to other permises at 2nd floor sadley is out as the building is detached and properties on either side are set further back, even an external stair on the side would have the conservation people pulling hair out. a rear stairs may be an option but could take months to get through if at all.

Meeting a few friends tonight one of which happens to be one of the local FSOs who's office is only 200 yards from this building, I can see a few hyperthetical what if's being part of the evening