Change to Signage Standards?

[davidandrewsuk]

Ah, the lesser of two evils.

Quite understandable.

[Psuedonym]

Another as of yet not mentioned issue with these "Euro" type things is the fact that European manufacturers believe these to be correct, want a Europe wide acceptable sign for their catalogues to be provided throughout Europe (Their client base) and therefore see them (the design) as an ideal solution.
From this all the architecs, fire protection personnel, insurance companies etc see them as the "standard" and issue forth their own regulations and advice with this design in. This filters down to the new build on site sparky, who pops into CEF etc who have a stack of catalogues and lovely "Euro" signs and they are thus installed.
Somebody comes along two years later who is a bit savvy, but its too late. Nobody wants to pay for signs that have been designated as legal - just see the insurance details for proof, and we are stuck labelled for a pushy commission based sales.
Then the standards change again .....are they retrospective? Who is going to pay for the emergency lighting to be replaced as both the design has changed and the E/L boxes don't exist for example. (The manufacturers change those on a weekly basis!) Oh whoa, more hassle . . . .

[Tom Sutton]

I am trying to get information on pren 7010 I have tried the Eur-Lex website but when I search for it I get negative results. I submitted the previous directive on signs and signals EEC Directive 92/58/EEC and it was positive. What I need is the reference for this latest ECC directive, can anybody help.

[Jim Creak]

ISO 7010 2002 plus Amendments 2006 have been proposed as an EN. The process has been fast tracked and adoption is expected early 2009....In my experience with the whole of this and other procedures within this field you might well add six months to any conservative estimate. However it is inevitable that the graphical symbols chosen for adoption to correct the crazy situation that exists at the moment will be (as most contributors recognise) the graphical symbol with the very best comprehension credentials as tested under ISO 9186..ISO 7010/ BS 5499/ ISO 16069......and quite rightly so.

The Health and Safety Sign Association has fully endorsed the new proposals of ISO 7010 and have advised its delegates on BSi to accept ISO 7010 Graphical symbols that have greater understanding... In the majority of cases there will be no change to the existing graphical symbols that are in the current British Standard BS 5499. The biggest impact will be on the graphical symbol for Escape Route. This is purely as a function of the so called "Euro Sign" promoted by the Emergency Lighting" industry and not as a difference in Standards or Best Practice.

I have consistently campaigned under a risk assessment regime that there can be no justification for using a sign that is not clearly understood. The risk of misunderstanding is too great and I hope the implementation of this corrective action does not take a prescribed piece of legislation which should happen but I suspect will never happen as the existing directive allows the use of ISO 7010/ BS 5499 Graphical Symbol  Not in my life time anyway. It should happen as part of any other review of fire safety arrangements, audit and upgrade on the merit of conforming to best practice.

So for those that still want to justify the unjustifiable...there will be plenty of room to do nothing about the crazy current situation.

[Tom Sutton]

Jim is there a committee to implement these proposals and is it possible to follow their progress or do we have to wait until it simple appears.

[Jim Creak]

The British Standards Committee for Graphical symbols and Signs..Public Information, Product Labels and Safety Signs is PH 8 in the International Standards Arena TC145 various sub committees within these primary technical committees have responsibility for developing particular Standards.

 The implementation of Standards is for professionals and enforcing authorities not Standards Bodies.

This legislation is the responsibility of the HSE and despite numerous formal requests have failed to send a delegate to attend a single meeting in the last 10 years to understand the difficulties and absurd contradictions in their copy out legislation.

The agenda is now set for risk assessors to decide the validity of using a fire safety arrangement that is in line with best technical solution, best practice conforms to Standard or some abstract symbol, few people understand and cannot possibly satisfy the objectives of a competent fire safety strategy.(In the opinion of WORLD technical experts)

It really all hinges on the definition of significant...we all have responsibility to address significant issues...Is non conformance to best practice significant? If it is green is it all rignt? What are the latitudes of acceptability? Why put more emphasis on a fire door fitting correctly and tested to a Standard than using the correct escape route sign.

The significance of EN BS ISO 7010 which I predict will be published by 2010 if not very late this year will be in the hands of fire safety professionals. The profession can use this as a catalyst for improvement or fall back on the old record that we only enact guidance, prescription, pictures in legislation. EC this or pure personal opinion. I think the latter diminishes the very hard dedicated work of this particular technical committee and experts.

There is no financial penalty for using a sign with proven status and technical credentials.. The upside is that it makes better fire safety sense...people understand it....That is why the Technical Committee is totally unanimous about what Graphic symbol to use.

I have mellowed with age on this issue, I used to be more passionate,I am now less likely to rant and rave over this issue, but I still cannot accept the view that one contributor makes for continuing with something that is quite clearly bad practice to ensure the whole place including new extention is bad as well.

Is this really the best of 2 evils? In my mind it is worse for the evacuee because he does not understand any of the signs. The contributor was right to say that it was at least consistent....In my professional technical opinion significantly and consistently worse for everyone in the building. that should be the catalyst and good reason for conformance and change

[Tom Sutton]

Thanks Jim for that detailed posting but have I understood it correctly.

Within the next twelve months we will have a new standard EN 7010 and the ISO, EN and BS standards will all recommend the same icon for escape route signs. However there will not be an EC directive and the HSE may not amend the Signs & Signals Regs so it will still be legal to use the euro sign. Consequentially it will be up to the likes of you and other fire safety professionals to resolve the situation but I think there will be problems, especially with the Emergency Lighting industry.

As I see it, not a lot will change; we will be still be in a similar situation except maybe we should drop the euro sign tag and refer to it as the HSE sign.

[colin todd]

James, I had noticed that you had mellowed and that you no longer rant and rave about this issue. Should we worry about your state of health?

[Jim Creak]

I did have had a major wake up call some 2 years ago now, but I now think it was just a way of getting me to check my life work balance and getting things into perspective. I am assured if I take the full cocktail of Beta Blockers and Statins eat only Omega this and that I will be OK Oh and I must not get excited. So I have started to chose very carefully the things that are really important...like answering this question to the best of my knowledge... I will now be able to drop this sort of thing into conversation from now on.." Oh Colin had to ask me for an explanation only the other day about something or another"  I think this can be used to get me membership of the IFE.  Thank you for asking.

In answer to the previous question ICEL/ LIF have already withdrawn technical support for the Euro Sign years ago and Members have been notified. In respect to the HSE legislation being so open and ambivalent as in fact you have if you want the  lattitude to use any or all of the 5 pictogram for Escape Route illustrated (The HSE video shows a single evacuation route with all 5 different ones used along the same route )or any other similar graphical symbol you like.  Our beleaguered Government has no reason to change to make it more prescriptive as the existing legilation allows anything. That is why I think the HSE and our beloved whitehall mandarins will not want to face the embarrassment of having to admitting their error.  The fast track adoption of ISO 7010 into a an EN does call for the EC to amend directive 92/58 and is very specific about the escape route symbol and others which have very low comprehension credentials. It really is up to the profession to enact this correction because it is accepted principle that conformance to Standard satisfies legislation..... The profession and enforcement authorities will only have to change if they think it is significant. As most people know I think it represents a significant risk to use a sign that many people do not understand.

I won't hold my breath and I will keep taking the tablets....

[kurnal]

Jim far be it from me to correct you on technical detail but I  would urge to hold your breath at least whilst taking your tablets.

Whilst the HSE legislation remains so open and the official guidance remains as it is now we are fighting a losing battle. The ACOP L64 and INDG184 remain best practice guidance.

It remains very difficult for a practitioner  or an enforcer to persuade a client to spend money changing out signs of a type that remain illustrated in the national published best practice and legal guidance.

What can we realistically expect to achieve without leadership from the HSE?

Its a bit like teaching someone to drive and telling them to drive at 20mph in a built up area not 30 because  you think it is safer. It undoubtedly would be safer and would save many lives but the highway code sets the limit at 30, so thats the speed they will drive at.

[colin todd]

James, the only question I asked was whether we should worry about your health, I was not really interested in all this signage stuff as it has little to do with keeping people safe from fire in buildings, which is a fee-earning hobby I have. I doubt the IFE would be impressed that you had to explain the functions of beat blockers and statins to me, though if you were applying to the royal college of nursing it might stand you in good stead. As it happens I did first year vet medicine as a lad, I take beta blockers for stress each time I talk talk to anyone from the Messeys, and I take statins for genetically high cholestrol. However, all this aside its nice to see you here and I am glad the old ticker keeps pumping. Best wishes.