Escape via roofs

[ps]

Hello all - I've been working my way happily (if that's the right word!) through the British Standard 999:2008 and looking at escape via a roof.

Ive got a property - 5 floors of purpose built flats 20 a single stairway exit to the front door. On the top landing, someone has retro fitted a flight of stairs up to the roof.  The stairway is currently marked as fire exit and theres a push bar on the door... all well and good, its a flat roof - it meets all the conditions in the current british standard, except for the last one, which states that the route accross the roof should lead to a story exit or an external escape route.

It doesnt, it just leads onto the flat roof which is shared by other properties in the terrace.

Each of the other properties seems to have the same passageway retro fitted, however once someone is up there  - there is no way down unless someone opens their door from the inside, given that the other properties house a mixture of residential and commercial tennants I can't see that happening.

So at the moment, if someone chooses to escape from a fire via the roof, they are stuck there (admittedly they can be some way away from the property thats on fire - and in my view, that's better than staying in?

Was the arrangement ever in line with British Standards - people on the top awaiting rescue from the brigade?

Any clue from anyone how I can make things better - or if the other conditions in the standard are met in respect of no vent openings, protective barriers etc.., would you say its acceptable?

[wee brian]

This sort of thing was very common in central London. I think we used to accept escape over roofs if you could get 3 or more properties away. There are little ladders and walkways all over the rooftops of london. It's not great but theres no way around it for some older buildings.

I doubt 9999 will help as it is primarily a design standard.

[AnthonyB]

If there was commercial usage then the exits to roof will have been added many many years ago under the OSRP or FPA and would not originally have been push bars but normal locks with keys in glass fronted boxes to both sides of each premises roof escape to allow access on the roof, across to another property and back down an adjacent properties stairs.

Over the years these routes often become untenable as people change fastenings for security so you can't get off and there are often no easements or means of escape licenses to allow the usage of theses routes.

Unless you can get an agreement with an adjoining premises freeholder and landlord to allow emergency egress through their premises and ensure that the correct two way access fastenings are provided for key less access (Mk2 redlam bolt, or double ASSA dome or maglock with fail-safe and break glass over rides) on your and there roof access doors you will have to carry out a new FRA based on the single 5 storey stair with one direction of escape.

You may find that you can't meet the benchmark minimum MoE requirements without the roof escape and thus need to provide alternative engineered solutions, such as a higher category of AFD, smoke control, etc.

Inner city 'old' parts of town are nightmares, particularly on London, but also in all major cities as the only way 'modern' MoE standards could be achieved in the 60's and 70's was by roof escapes into adjoining buildings and by fire escape doors in compartment walls into adjoining buildings floorspace. Fire certification tenuously maintained the usability of these interconnections by putting them on the plan and requiring their maintenance, but with the fire certificate dead and buried and tick box risk assessors who don't know the history of MoE provision serious problems are occuring - I hate a job with MoE based on using other buildings!

BS9999 won't help much other than trying to find a way of justifying your new reduced escape options.

[kurnal]

How many flats are served by the single staircase?
Do flats open directly onto the staircase or is there a lobby between the staircase and the flats?
Are any doors to the staircase to a fire resisting standard?
Are there any fire doors across the staircase at any level?
Can you reach the door to the roof without passing into the main staicase?

Sorry for all the questions but the whole idea of an alternative exit route would be that if the staircase is impassable due to fire, people can turn their back on the fire and use the alternative route.  It just strikes me that depending on the answers to the questions above,  if you have to pass through the main stair to reach the roof exit then there is no point in it at all.
If this is the case, the roof exit may be better used for the fire service to ventilate the stair rather than as a fire  exit.

It may be best to focus your efforts on protecting the single staircase. It probably is not ideal and non compliant to any design guide- but we are where we are and all you can do is make it as safe as you reasonably can.

I once visited Dublin and asked a passer by for directions to the railway station. "Well to be sure" he said "If I were you I wouldn't start from here"

[ps]

Hi Kurnal - there are around 20 flats off the central stair (each with fire doors and self closers) the remaining 10 flats are behind fire doors in little lobbies, again off the main stair. The staircase is therefore only enclosed by the flats themselves.

No fire doors across the stair at any level.

Yes, the door to the roof is separated by a fire door.

If the signs are taken away from the fire escape - and people still decide to use it - are they in danger if they go up there and move three properties away?  My concern is if we decide that its a risk - shouldn't I tell the other property owners along the same stretch who all have the same layout?

[kurnal]

Yes before making any changes you should tell other property owners. However as there is a panic bolt on the escape door it is unlikely that anyoune could have entered it from the roof anyway.

I really cannot advise you whether it is appropriate to discontinue use of the exit without having seen the building, a fire risk assessment of the common areas needs to be carried out as a first step. This way you will be able to judge whether the door makes any useful contribution to the means of escape or not. It is a relatively tall building of five floors and under previous guidance sometimes an alternative means of escape was provided to serve  only the topmost floor. This may explain the door separating the roof exit from the main staircase.   

[ps]

Thanks again Kurnal - you may not have signed up to be a hero - but you are to me! Your answers always smack of blinding logic!

[nearlythere]

During the misty days of CP3 was it not acceptable to provide double door protection using the flat's main entrance door and a protected hallway? It obviously would have it's problems with maintaining such an arrangement but that wasn't an issue at the time.
Am I right or is my long term memory span leaking a little, or a lot?

[kurnal]

CP3 was intended to cover new buildings, a document was published in 1988 covering existing buildings that fit this scenario.

ISBN 0862523699 from 1988 " Guide to means of escape and related fire safety measures in certain existing houses in multiple occupation" covered buildings that comprised flats but that did not conform to CP3.

In a house with 5 or 6 floors the staircase should be made a protected route,and
The accommodation should be protected from the stair by a protected lobby,  and
An upward escape route within the protected stairway would be acceptable if a fire resisting screen and self closing fire door is provided in such a manner that complete separation is provided between the upward and downward flight of stairs at those levelsand access can be gained to a flat roof from the head of the stairs, the flat roof to lead to adjoining premises from which as safe route to ground floor within those premises must be available.
The walkway to have a non skid surface and guardrails of 1100mm and lit by primary and secondary lighting.

CP3 specified that single staircase buildings over four storeys should have lobbies protecting the stairs which may need to be ventilated depending on the floor area of the storey, and as you say nearlythere,  paragraph 3.4.3.4 allowed some five storey buildings and higher to have a single stair provided floors above the 4th floor had access to an alternative  safe route to the ground level.

( otherwise single stair buildings were permissable provided there was a protected lobby approach and ventilation to the stair.)