Positive discrimination in the fire service

[messy]

Ron, while I agree with you about the wasted opportunity, I must ask - how do those who run these minority inspired events feel about such corporate recruitment invasions?

Many years ago, I saw  a mock submarine on a truck in the Notting Hill Carnival parade - recruiting for the Royal Navy. It looked totally out of place in a Carribean carnival - surrounded by truck mounted million(?)-watt sound systems and steel bands!!. Now everyone's at it and the procession is full of public authority type floats keen to fly the BME flag.

London Fire Brigade have had a NH Carnival float for a few years now and whilst I do not doubt it is good PR and a useful recruitment tool, does watering down such an event cause any resentment in those minority groups.

Several other events, such as The gay pride march in London has also been 'hijacked' by the Met Police, LFB and others as a PR excuse.

I wonder whether it does more harm than good as, if I attended or organised a minority led event, I would perhaps be somewhat resentful of such obvious corporate intervention 'watering down' the aims & message of the event.

[wee brian]

Its a difficult one but it must be better to get more applicants from different backgrounds but still select the most suitable applicants. he alternative is positive discrimination which is a bad idea all around.

The Navy, Army, Fire & Police services etc are there for everybody so why not have a float at a caribean carnival.

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

AllyMacG .... I think you really do miss the point of what Positive Action is all about. Yes, you may feel angry and the lowest on the pecking order, but you have to look at the situation with a different tack.

A fire & rescue service decides to recruit, so places an advert in the local press. Guranteed, most applicants will be white males. There is no need to approach these and ask if they would consider a career, it's a forgone conclusion confirmed by the number of applications.

What about under represented groups? (And not just ethnic, female etc etc .... you have to consider all groups that are under represented)
How do you provide information to them and perhaps encourage them to consider a career?
How do you break down the barriers and misconception that only white males can apply?

Positive action days are not discriminatory, they are there to provide information to those who are under represented and assist them to make a more reasoned judgement of whether it is a job they could do. they can talk to serving personnel and obtain information regarding the application process, life on station, see demonstrations of equipment, have a go at some of the tests etc.

They still have to apply like everyone else, and if application packs are handed out, then it becomes discriminitory.

Hope that makes sense!!

[fireftrm]

I agree, almost entirley, with Messy, WeeBrian and Baldyman - with the solitary disagreement being on the handing out of application packs. That is not discriminatory, unless these are ONLY available at positive action days.

Actually Avon's days were open to white males, though only one of them and there were also numerous times advertised that you could go along to a fire station to get a pack and advice.

[terry martin]

anyone been watching the news, apparently the people upstairs in westminster are proposing to make positive discrimination LEGAL.

this is apparently so that employers can acheive a better demographic of employees.

They are suggesting that if 2 equally qualified people are applying for the same job. one is a white male, one is a black male. the employer can choose to employ the black person soley on the basis that he is a minority status in order to better balance the demographics of their employees.

I think this is dangerous ground, what happens if the 2 people applying are considered under-represented within the company, one is a black male, the other a black female. Does the female get it because she represents 2 minorities?

surely discriminating against anyone, in any form and for any reason is wrong. this surely cannot work. There can't be any clauses or conditions or exceptions to discrimination law, otherwise where will it end. First the white male, who next?
 It will cause anomosity in the workplace, people will be looked down upon because others believe they only got their job because of their minority status.

[AllyMacG]

That is what is known as "affirmative action"

[chappie]

Im new here and this subject caught my eye as i was part of the 'have a go' day in Avon.

Whatever you think of it, and it certainly had me doubting some parts, i have to commend Avon for trying something different. For some reason, women and BME groups are not applying to join us and that worries me. Its very easy to dismiss it with 'if they dont wanna join then its up to them' but i want the best people for the job and if 65% of Bristols population are not applying then we could be missing out on a lot of talented people.

[andylock]

I came across this post and started reading with a deep sense of dread. I was massively impressed and relieved with most of replies which showed a maturity and level of acceptance I wasn't expecting.
I am a female firefighter and I am very proud of my profession. It took me over 2 years to become wholetime. During this time I responded to over 8 campaigns in brigades all over the country and became a retained FF in my local brigade. During this time, not once did I receive any female specific information or assistance. I was the only female on my training course and there was one BME on a course of 21. And the rest of the course were of course........ white, heterosexual males. Very nice they were too. Positive action has been used for the last 8 YEARS so why are us minority groups still such a massive minority when apparently all we have to turn up an open day and we're measured up for our kit! The easiest retort I can give to people who assume only non- white males are recruited is go to your training centre, today, and see the reality. Unfortunately the ham fisted approach some brigades have employeed to attract minority groups has backfired horribly. I never want anyone to look at me and think I'm only here to fill a target.
As we all know, our job is not for everybody and I would never, ever defend the wrong person being appointed but then again we all know someone who we look at and think 'how the hell did you get in'. It's a better story if the incompetent person is 'the girl from green' or 'the asian bloke from B2' rather than the 20 year LFF who is so fat he can't wear a BA set. The important thing is- would you write them off or offer them support to improve? We all have strenghs and weaknesses, that's why we work in a team. If someone isn't strong enough to drag a 12stone person and has no intention of developing that strength, then that is a serious, potentially dangerous problem. But if they do? Then don't we owe it to them to get behind them and encourage them? Don't punish someone for the brigade's failings, that person has passed what that brigade has deemed appropriate tests.
I think a lot of people want to look for lazy reasons to blame someone else for there own misfortunes.
Do I want to see 14% female firefighters? No, it shouldn't have a percentage tagged on it- I want this remarkable, rewarding job to be appealing to anyone who has the determination, resiliance and enhusiasm to fulfill the role. I came from a background of building work and still, despite always working with men, it took a friend of mine to apply to the fireservice for it to go off like a lightbulb in my head that the fire service could be my perfect career. If you have never been a minority in a situation it is futile me trying to explain the importance of peer support. For the more enlightened of you, try going to a step aerobic class, on your own. I'll bet that hour will really open your eyes. Role models are the key- and they take time in finding.
So anyway- i thought there were some great comments on here that are very encouraging for our service. We are a team- let's look after each other.
Oh and by the way- if you a white, male primary school teacher, there are postive action campaigns just for you!