Rank to role

[Lee999]

Has rank to role been implemented yet?

[AnthonyB]

Seems to have been in some , certainly S yorks, was speaking to someone recently who introduced them as a watch manager which didn't twig until he said he was from SYFRS - I'm used to people calling themselves subO, StnO, ADO etc

[Lee999]

Thanks for the reply.

I understood the situation to be "rank to role pending"

Taking this to mean that we were still to use rank.

[dave bev]

the national agreements allow for the transition from r2r to take place - however to do it properly it requires a lot of work in understanding what 'jobs' are currently carried out and to ensure that a qa process is in place - many brigades are using the terms wm/cm/sm etc but have yet to implement r2r fully

dave bev

[Big A]

It came into effect in London in October. We are now either firefighters, crew manager, watch manager (A or B), station managers, group managers, area managers or brigade managers.
Apart from the fact that there are even more white helmets on the firefround than before (as all WMs wear white helmets and shirts with Stn O rank markings) I can't say I've really noticed any difference.

[Andy Cole]

White Helmets always seem to almost out number the yellow ones at most jobs nowadays anyway!

[steve walker]

It came into effect in London in October. We are now either firefighters, crew manager, watch manager (A or B), station managers, group managers, area managers or brigade managers.
Apart from the fact that there are even more white helmets on the firefround than before (as all WMs wear white helmets and shirts with Stn O rank markings) I can't say I've really noticed any difference.

In London, Station Officers were regraded as WM(B) but their pay level is SM(A). At the moment their pay is protected until June 07; after that who knows.

There are no SM(A) positions; you just jump from WM (A or B) to SM(B).

BMs have kept their "Commissioner" title.

[fireftrm]

Steve this is the national position where the StnO was a watch manager. The suggestion you are making is that LFB StnOs are being treated this way, when in fact this was in the 2003 pay agreement! Anyway is Watch Manager not their role?

Here we have not had rider StnO positions for over 15 years, so this is the leveling of the playing fileds, why should larger FRS have been able to pay more for the same job?

I do think that the failure to correctly address rank to role, which appears evident in LFB, is a mistake. All that they have done is used the pay assimilation points. Who has determined that the job size of ALL SMs is A, or that of the previous StnOs is WM B? I would like to see this work as it is a very time consuming and in depth affair to do properly, LFB could do us all a favour by releasing the work to allow us something to work from? Maybe not!

We are carrying out full job evaluations to determine the role, after which we will do job sizing to determine the A or B pay scale. The right way.

By the way as SM A and B are THE SAME ROLE, but with differing job weighting, the move from WM to either is entirely sensible, it is is no 'promotion' within a role to move from one scale to the other.

[steve walker]

I meant to state the facts rather than make any contentious suggestions.

I still find much of this rank to role stuff semantic nonsense. When will the little boy shout, "The emperor is naked"?

Ok that might be a bit contentious.

[dave bev]

not that contentious steve, its a phrase i often use, along with suggestting the rolemaps and therefore ipds could still be implemented alongside the rank structure - there is, in my opinion, no need to move to 'roles' to implement ipds!

dave bev

[Lee999]

Dave, you are spot on.

But while we all change our titles for no good reason, the CFO and DCFO remain just that.

Not Brigade managers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The general principles of the the IPDS 'system' could still be applied if we were to remain in rank.

You can be a LFF, in the role of a crew manager. etc

On the bright side, after prematurely binning rank markinings a year ago....they are now 'back for good'

[Big A]

not that contentious steve, its a phrase i often use, along with suggestting the rolemaps and therefore ipds could still be implemented alongside the rank structure - there is, in my opinion, no need to move to 'roles' to implement ipds!

dave bev

I think it's another step down the route to FRSs being managed 'like a large branch of Woolworths'. Part of the modern management theory that says if you can manage, it is not necessary to have any practical experience of the processes you are proposing to manage. This has been common practice in the outside world for some years.  Even a large fire or special service is going to be viewed as a resource management exercise.