'free schools'....

[Tom Sutton]

Getting back to the original question does Mr Gove really want to reduce fire safety considering we are into risk assessment anyway.

Mr Gove said the D of E is taking "practical steps" to make the process easier and, working with the Department for Communities and Local Government, will be changing planning rules.

"We don't need to have the degree of prescription and regulation that's governed school buildings so far," Mr Gove said.

Mr Gove said it is "amazingly complicated, not just to build a new school, but to convert an existing building into a school".

In future, new schools will have to comply with rules similar to private schools that make sure children are safe, can learn and adhere to basic minimum standards.

[kurnal]

I agree with you over L4 Wiz  unless there are rooms of high risk that are unoccupied from time to time and where a fire may develop undetected. School laboratories are considered to be high risk rooms in the Building Regs ADB. But the statistics in Fire safety Management suggest that a P1 would be justified if we are to save the buildings and safeguard the continuity of the childrens education.

I wonder how many local authorites insure their schools? I believe that my authority does not, and that they plan for one total loss each year. 

[Mike Buckley]

I wonder how many local authorites insure their schools? I believe that my authority does not, and that they plan for one total loss each year. 

Not very many, the general position I believe is that the cost to a local authority to insure all their properties against fire for a year is more then the cost they expect to incure from fire damage in a year on average.

Its a bit like a kid buying a car for £1,000 and then finding that their annual insurance bill is £2,000.

[Chris Houston]

When I worked for Zurich Municipal, the vary majority of UK local authorities insured with them.  I don't remember the numbers, but many colleges and independent schools did so too.  There has been a recent trend to set up captives/mutuals or the like.  About 15 years ago that was the norm in the UK.  There was a mutual called "Municiapal Mutal".  It went bust due to the number of school fires and the poor risk management at them.  Zurich Municipal took over from there.

I think insurers reacognise that asking for P1/M systems to be retro fitted would be a difficult argument to fight, but if you read the Zurich Municipal School Design Guide, indeed that is what it would ask for.

http://www.zurich.co.uk/municipal/toolsandtips/informationlibrary/safe.htm

[Midland Retty]

I cannot accept that a pupils clothing being set on fire in a school is anything other than fire safety.  it

Correct Chris - it is a fire safety matter. No two ways about it.

But we are talking about relaxations in planning and building regs when it comes to schools. This accident was down to poor management, and poor supervision I suspect. The fact a fire alarm was or wasnt fitted, or a fire door wasn't fitted, or sprinklers wouldnt have changed that, so I dont see your point in that respect.

Is this an everyday occurence?  Have we had fire deaths? . Even if a fire did occur the basic premises as we argued recently on another thread is how far you go with fire precautions, and how or when someone is put at risk. if a fire occurred but the fire precautions did their job, and people got out safely then how can someone have been put at risk? Is that not what the precautions are there for?

If they did do their job the next thing then is to say its not enough just to look at life safety, we need to look at building protection too, to protect our assets. That is the big problem i see with potential lowering of standards, buildings more exposed to arson.

So if you want to talk about management of fire safety and safety in general within schools then thats fine, but the thread relates to the building.

Frankly I doubt very much even with lowered standards any new school buildings or existing oness would be as bad as  CLASP constructed buildings, and weve not seen fire deaths or injuries in those.

[Wiz]

When I worked for Zurich Municipal, the vary majority of UK local authorities insured with them.  I don't remember the numbers, but many colleges and independent schools did so too.  There has been a recent trend to set up captives/mutuals or the like.  About 15 years ago that was the norm in the UK.  There was a mutual called "Municiapal Mutal".  It went bust due to the number of school fires and the poor risk management at them.  Zurich Municipal took over from there.

I think insurers reacognise that asking for P1/M systems to be retro fitted would be a difficult argument to fight, but if you read the Zurich Municipal School Design Guide, indeed that is what it would ask for.

http://www.zurich.co.uk/municipal/toolsandtips/informationlibrary/safe.htm

Interesting Chris.

For those who do not know, a P1/M would be the same as the highest category of Life category system but plus, possibly, a longer battery standby duty, and, definitely, a signalling system to an alarm receiving centre. This would provide the most costly fire alarm and detection system possible! No wonder the insurance company ask for it!

I would have thought that a company as well regarded as Zurich would know what they are doing, and that other insurance companies would therefore also ask for a P1/M system. So l don't undersatnd why so many schools tell me that their insurance companies are not asking for any specific category of system. Are they lying? Is it my responsibility to ask them to prove what they are telling me?

[Chris Houston]

I suspect what they might mean is that to the best of their knowledge they have had no specific request from their insurance company for any category of system.  Insurance companies might respond if asked, but probably don't push it that much.  I'll speculate (as I no longer work in insurance) that most insurance companies, including the aforementioned one accept that most schools don't have P1/M systems and will still insure them without one.

P.S. I hope most UK Fire Safety professionals know what a Category P1/M system is (by the way, not much difference to an L1 system, but with signaling.....which in most UK schools isn't much different from a L2 system anyway, which seems to be the norm for new builds