Crown Immunity

[Guest]

Further to article in February 'Fire' "Do unto others, Crisis of Crown Immunity" does anyone have any guidance on whether Crown Immunity is really on it's way out? Are any timescales being discussed? Is it likely to happen at all?

[Guest]

No, no and no!  

[ian 2243]

Further to article in February 'Fire' "Do unto others, Crisis of Crown Immunity" does anyone have any guidance on whether Crown Immunity is really on it's way out? Are any timescales being discussed? Is it likely to happen at all?

Crown property does not have immunity to HASAW & Fire Precautions (Workplace) regs however it does have certain exemptions e.g. locked fire exits in places of lawful detention etc.
The enforcing authority is HM Fire Inspectorate and not local fire brigades.
Where Crown Immunity exists as to Building Control they are still expected to comply especially where alterations or other work would affect fire safety.
This is the case in Scotland perhaps my English colleagues have other ideas.

Ian.
 

[AnthonyB]

My understanding is that it's not necessarily a case of not having to comply, but that they are immune from prosecution.

The worst sanction an enforcing authority has is a Crown Censure, basically a slap on the wrist saying "please don't do it again, that was very naughty"

Most crown bodies have to comply with the H&S legislation (with certain "operational" exemptions for the police and military) it's just that they retain immunity from prosecution.

[afterburner]

That's the point really. The FP(W)R apply but the actual enforcement route is not the same as elsewhere. With the advent of IRMP and fire services greater involvement in fire safety advice and enforcement is it likely that the role of HMIFS will cease? Will we ever have a day when fire authorities enforce legislation in Crown Property and Premises?
Ian thanks for comment, my particular interest is in Scotland and my enforcing authority is indeed HMI Scottish Fire Services

[Colin Newman]

Crown Immunity is merely immunity from prosecution.  It doesn't mean carte blanche not comply with  statutory or mandatory requirements, nor to follow good practice.  It merely means that a Government body cannot be pursued through the court system.

If Crown Immunity didn't exist, Government bodies that failed to maintain appropriate standards could be prosecuted.  The case prosecuited by an officer of the Crown against the Crown (i.e. Regina v Regina) could not legally proceed.  

Hence, the process of Crown Censure provides a mechanism for hearing the evidence of the faiuling and taking appropriate action against those officers of the Crown found to be failing.  This could be a darned sight more than a 'slap on the wrist'!

The process of Crown Censure seeks to demonstrate that if it were not for Crown Immunity those facing censure could/would have been prosecuted.

[ian 2243]

Colin,
I agree, I know of enforcement notices served against crown property which had the desired effect. Too often legislation is given lip service by the crown in the mistaken belief that nothing can happen to them. As we move towards corporate responsibility the approach of Regina v Regina could also become extinct as individuals in authority can be held liable whether crown or not.

Afterburner,
Although IRMP will indeed give local 'ownership' most crown premises have, to varying degrees security implications which will always be used to limit information to fire brigades. Recent meetings with fire brigades reveal grey areas as to whether HMI will indeed relinquish current enforcement authority.

Watch this space!

Ian
 :?

[afterburner]

I suppose the frustration really stems from management with 'Immune' categories who really do believe they, and their organisations are bomb proof in terms of fire legislation enforcment. I accept that Regina V Regina is aproblem but it is only technical. The problem lies in the upward trend of legislative responsibility. Could fire safety non=compliance issues arrive on the doorstep of elected politicians, and on up to Ministers? Could the lack of progress be directly linked to those who may become responsible?
Just because it always been this way doesn't mean it always will or should be. Good info on the HMI greying the discussions .......

[Guest]

if the crown had no immunity re h&s legislation, why was the unfortunate case of the worker in the royal mint in wales who sadly lost his life after being crushed not pursued by the courts?

dave bev

i say remove crown immunity - and im not scared of the princess royal's dog either!

[AnthonyB]

HSE did take proceedings against them under Section 2(1) Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974

A Crown Censure resulted.

See http://www.hse.gov.uk/prosecutions/documents/crowncensures.htm#Crown%20Censure%207:%20Royal%20Mint

(cut and paste link)

[Guest]

thanks anthony, i was aware of that but my understanding is that if it wouldnt have been the crown then someone would have been prosecuted with the same repercussions as would have happened in industry.

what was the extent of the censure

thanks

dave bev

[AnthonyB]

According to the HSE Crown censure is an administrative procedure, whereby HSE may summon a Crown employer to be censured for a breach of the Act or a subordinate regulation which, but for Crown Immunity, would have led to prosecution with a realistic prospect of conviction.

The Crown body can accept the censure or appeal. But thats all there is to it, purely paperwork, hence my earlier description of it being a slap on the wrist saying "please don't do it again, that was very naughty" - whether the Crown decides to take disciplinary action against the offender has nothing to do with the censure, just as it wouldn't in normal industry post prosecution

[colin todd]

Davey, When certain officials of your illustrious organisation run the country, will the Queen be subject to capital punishment for all H&S offences?

[Guest]

colin, i love watching the royle family as i would suggest so do most people in the 'illustrious organisation' that is the fbu!!!

as regards capital punishment i am not in favour of it for anyone

dave bev

[Clevelandfire 3]

something fishy going on