Ridership

[Cut Fire Service Pay]

When I worked in Devon, retained stations booked out with a crew of 3 all the time during daytime hours. The stations that did co-responding booked out with 3 and no additional pump was ever mobilised. Ok for a medical job but what happened if they got proceeded to a fire persons reported or an RTA? Minimum riders on a WT pump was always 4.

[Andy Cole]

As I say they never let a pump go with only 3, if they do they always 'cover' it with another even if it's only backing up another appliance.

[dave bev]

so what does happen when a crew arrive without enough firefighters to make an intervention safely? is it correct that an employer should allow this to happen, knowing as they do that a firefighter (who are people) will do the same as an unequiped member of the public, and try to do something? potentially risking their lives (i'll wait for that part of the debate to be raised, probably in isolation of the rest of the thread!)  

bvpi 145 used to record such information.

whatever happened to leon trotsky, he got an ice pick ............ NO MORE HERO'S ANYMORE

[Lee999]

So, do we all agree that we need 5 to turn out?

How can we make this happen, before we lose people?

Any info on the tragic Stevenage fire would be of interest.

[Paul Grimwood]

So, do we all agree that we need 5 to turn out?

How can we make this happen, before we lose people?

Any info on the tragic Stevenage fire would be of interest.

What are our objectives? Is it safe to attempt a rescue without a hoseline on the fire? Or do we take the fire first and leave the rescue? How many firefighters do we need on scene to achieve both options if the fire at ground floor level and the occupants are somewhere above? How many firefighters do we need (minimum) to initiate a primary attack and search on a working flat fire on the 17th floor? How many firefighters (minimum) should be in that initial crew that responds to the fire floor?

These are all routine situations that should be accounted for in your documented working practices .... I bet they aren't!

Each brigade/station/watch/officer/crew across the UK will approach these scenarios differently! There are optimum levels involved here to undertake the tasks but who will agree on them!

[dave bev]

lee, not so simple. its the numbers at the incident and the time they arrive, NOT the numbers who turn out. of course there will be a 'time lag' if they are mobilised from different locations - perhaps the phrase 'speed and weight of attack' actually did mean something, even all these years ago!

the report of stevenage may have been completed already!!

paulg - optimum levels - yes there are. they were contained within the 'pathfinder reviews' and are being resurrected by the FBU in its CAST process/principles (Critical Attendance STandard) and the point you make re 'documented working practices' is in my opinion a valid one, however stating one thing and allowing something totally different to happen is the real issue - brigades turn a blind eye to unsafe and dangerous practices. they should be accountable!!


dave bev

[buffalosid]

So, do we all agree that we need 5 to turn out?

How can we make this happen, before we lose people?

Any info on the tragic Stevenage fire would be of interest.

What are our objectives? Is it safe to attempt a rescue without a hoseline on the fire? Or do we take the fire first and leave the rescue? How many firefighters do we need on scene to achieve both options if the fire at ground floor level and the occupants are somewhere above? How many firefighters do we need (minimum) to initiate a primary attack and search on a working flat fire on the 17th floor? How many firefighters (minimum) should be in that initial crew that responds to the fire floor?

These are all routine situations that should be accounted for in your documented working practices .... I bet they aren't!

Each brigade/station/watch/officer/crew across the UK will approach these scenarios differently! There are optimum levels involved here to undertake the tasks but who will agree on them!

I would say it can be  safe to perform a "SNATCH" rescue without water in some circumstances and im sure most of us have. it merely depends on the location and intensity of the fire  vs location/number of casualties.
but yeah normal procedures with only one BA team and a unknown location for casualties would be to fight the fire first therfore eliminating the risk to yourselves.
how many firefighters needed? well doesnt that depend on the structure too?

flat fire on the 17th floor......well i think a 3 pump turn-out minimum is needed as far as BA for firefighting and search well 2 teams of 2 is sufficient for what are reasonably small flats.  
my own station has 3 wholetime pumps .the 1st pump deals with water ie dry riser and hydrant, the 2nd and 3rd take care of the high rise kit -hose branch etc and wear BA

the only info i have on the stevenage incident comes down the grapeline so i cannot vouch for its accuracy but ill share it anyway but please dont take it as fact.

2 pump attendence sub o 5 years in , lff 3 years in . the two firefighters 4 yrs and 2 yrs.  perhaps the crews were lacking in experience ??i have also heard that no   hot fire training had been given in  hertfordshire for several years after initial training.

confirmed persons reported, flames roaring out the window.

the two BA enetered with no water , still had theyre tallies on and took the lift straight to the floor of the fire. ( bridgehead???)
they proceded down the coridor and found a casualty who was carried to safety)they then made entry to the _flat_ after hearing calls/coughing a internal door was then opened. .

[Cut Fire Service Pay]

Minimum riders on a pump, WT or Ret should be 5. However with brigades trying to use IRMP to cut jobs and close stations and nothing realisticly being done about retained recruitment & retention in most brigades as well as more brigades switch crewing specials such as TLs;I don't know how this can be achived on a regular basis? I know that many brigades are short on their WT establishment but are unable to recruit more Ffs due to budget shortfalls.

[Lee999]

Dave B

Could you outline what the FBU are proposing, and a time scale for which results can be expected? (please)

[dave bev]

lee,

http://www.fbu.org.uk/workplace/irmp/irmpdoc/index.php

there are several cast planning sceanrios being developed for different types of incidents - the national document may help you understand the propsals

dave bev

[Paul Grimwood]

The Stevenage reportS are being collated still. There is a BRE computer simulation of the flat fire included. I am legally prevented from commenting on what occurred but you are best not advised to listen too closely to the 'grapevine' versions!

3 pumps on an initial high-rise attendance is great if you have it! Most brigades operate with two I believe, which is one over the national requirement.

FBU proposals for residential tower blocks is a minimum of 13 firefighters. However, an effective tactical deployment of those firefighters demands a a carefully thought out and documented SOP.

Sid - interior SNATCH rescues are a last resort and should be discouraged in all but the most desperate situations where a hoseline is not operating on the fire.