Author Topic: BS5839 - Functional testing  (Read 14716 times)

Offline David Rooney

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Re: BS5839 - Functional testing
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2011, 06:05:44 PM »
David, if you've got any details of analogue detection failures you could let me have I'd be really grateful.


I'm going back over twenty five years as well and no the record keeping was never that accurate. If a detector didn't work it got disposed of in an environmentally friendly manner of course and replaced.

I appreciate the need to cut costs etc and to question the safety implications of putting areas of a building into test mode and I don't think your thinking is folly.

The same argument could be put forward by any commercial building administrator.

The risk is there, it's been identified and now it needs to be managed. Most hospitals I've seen tend to be pretty crowded most of the day so putting automatic detection into test in restricted areas for a limited time period while keeping call point operational doesn't seem unreasonable?

I don't think that relying on technology alone to effectively monitor itself is necessarily the right way to go.

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Offline Colin Newman

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Re: BS5839 - Functional testing
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2011, 06:44:56 PM »
I agree that just leaving the machine to monitor the machine is likely to end with disaster.  Wiz's concept could prove very useful though in a large organisation like a NHS Trust where the shift engineering supervisor could be warned of a potential problem, possibly even before the system monitoring raised a fault.  It could help to program in planned preventative maintenance activities.

I'm not advocating abandoning testing, I believe that MCP's should be tested, probably more frequently than the recommendations of the BS, (they don't return any meaningful analogue values), amd a regular visual inspection is also necessary (it's amazing how all those latex gloves end up covering detectors!).  There's also a need to revalidate the cause and effects.

Crowds in hospitals may be the norm in outpatients during clinics, but there are large parts of hospitals that can be relatively unpopulated at different times of the day.  Often many of these areas are back of house and considered "hazard departments" like central sterile supplies, medical records, refuse collection etc, the very areas where if a fire occurs it is desirable to have the earliest possible warning.


Offline David Rooney

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Re: BS5839 - Functional testing
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2011, 12:31:43 AM »
Wiz's concept is great and if it were feasible and profitable I'm sure such a system would be in place already.

The reality is that most analogue addressable panels monitor the detectors for failure or contamination in one way shape or form and should flag up devices at certain limit points.

The problem is that this isn't 100% guaranteed.

With regard the danger areas identified, again the risk is managable if the system is zoned correctly, only one zone is tested at a time and an engineer is present in the area (obviously) at the time of testing to notice if a fire really does break out.
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Offline Colin Newman

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Re: BS5839 - Functional testing
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2011, 09:05:07 AM »
I agree, nothing is 100% guaranteed, the probability of failure on demand is always greater than zero, but the whole premise of an analogue detection system is that analogue values are communicated to the control panel.  Since the control panel has this data, it seems daft not to exploit it to the fullest.

Whilst I agree that putting only one zone into test at a time is prudent, it is not uncommon for a single zone to represent an entire department, some of which are boardering on the maximum zone size described in the BS.  Having a single engineer, who is busy carrying out the functional testing, also performing a fire watch function doesn't appear to do much to reduce risk levels.

Offline David Rooney

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Re: BS5839 - Functional testing
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2011, 09:22:01 AM »
So how do actually propose to functionally test a detector in a cupboard somewhere that is going to save money and make the process less risky ?
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Offline Colin Newman

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Re: BS5839 - Functional testing
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2011, 09:55:01 AM »
As I've previously stated, the aim is primarily to reduce risk rather than save money.

Where detectors are in benign environments such as cupboards, and thier analogue values don't fluctuate to any significant degree i.e. there is insufficient stimulus in the normal vicinity of the detector, then the only way to gain assurance that the detector is capable of responding to a fire-like stimulus it to stimulate it.  In that case, the functional testing is absolutely necessary, but that's for individual devices, i.e. Some detectors may be functionally tested more regularly than others on the basis of the variations in their ambient environments and the corresponding fluctuations in analogue values seen at the control panel.  Such an approach will not only target resources to those devices for which there is little evidence that they are capable of responding to fire like stimuli, but should also highlight those devices that have been impaired by being covered or otherwise contaminated.

The functional test itself is carried out over a 12 month period, and some devices aren't visually checked or otherwise examined between each test.  Testing a device today doesn't prevent it's failure tomorrow. There could be a case to argue for reducing interval between functional tests. Currently tests are carried out in a 12 month basis, the BS committee agreed on the interval, probably taking account the reliability and capabilities of fire detection systems available at the time which includes conventional systems with far less  automatic monitoring capabilities.
 
Perhaps there is more of a case to be argued for increasing the interval between functional testing if the outcome of the cost benefit analysis demonstrates that cost of testing (both in terms of increased risk and financial) is disproportionate to the aggregate reduction in risk achieved through functional testing on an annual basis.

Offline Wiz

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Re: BS5839 - Functional testing
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2011, 10:47:23 AM »
Colin, wouldn't it be great, in your particular instllation scenario, if there was a testing device that took the anaolgue value up from it's ambient to a value that was less than the value needed to create an alarm condition. You could then test devices knowing the stimuli had the desired affect on the analogue value without creating a full alarm and then make the probably fair assumption that the alarm analogue value would be achieved on a 'full-to-fire' test.

Offline Colin Newman

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Re: BS5839 - Functional testing
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2011, 01:20:39 PM »
Yep, sounds like a useful arrangement.

A number of systems do carry out automatic "self-stimulation" of their optical detectors by periodically increasing the output intensity of the sensors LED and watching for the increased response at the photodiode, but as fas as I can discover, none of them present this information to the user. 

Whilst this is a relatively simple thing to achieve for an optical detector, heat detectors and ionisation detectosr would require far more complex arrangements, although not beyond the wit of man.

Offline Username

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Re: BS5839 - Functional testing
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2011, 08:15:19 AM »
In order to reduce the risk during testing we require our service company to use two technicians, one to go around and test each device, the other to monitor the fire panel.

If an activation comes into the panel that is unexpected then the system can be quickly restored and a genuine alarm raised.