Author Topic: Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?  (Read 12508 times)

messy

  • Guest
As Colin has mentioned once or twice recently, some larger Brigades do appear to have difficulty ensuring consistency in their approach to fire safety policy and enforcement across their different teams. London appear to have more difficulty than most.

I have talked (here and elsewhere) to a number of FS Consultants who have pan London and pan Britain invovement and are becoming increasing frustrated with the varying approaches between and across Brigades

With many FS professionals using this forum that presumably have experience working with various LA FS depts, how can this situation be improved? and are there any examples of best practise out there?

Offline Brian Catton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2005, 10:10:17 PM »
Is there anything uniform about fire safety? Brigades do not even have uniformity in the way they dress now. I think that CFOA should ensure Brigades recognise national standards such as PAS 79 BS 5588 part 12 etc. As someone said recently only the courts can arbitrate.(was it Colin Todd?)
Perhaps we will never get an answer to your question. After all there has never been any uniformity in the enforcement approach of Brigades since the 1961 and 1963 Acts and certainly not following the enactment of designating orders under the 1971 Act.
It is for fire consultants and other Advisors to ensure that their philosophy and documentation stands up to the scrutiny of these enforcers.

Maybe we do not want consistency/uniformity life would be boring if there were no challenges.

mindless

  • Guest
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2005, 02:48:15 PM »
The future is bright (maybe), the future is the RRO.

The CFOA fire Safety group have been working actively on this issue in relation to the RRO, having developed an audit model, draft coorespondence and a number of training packages (currently being rolled out nationally).

Whilst it will remain for individual Services to adopt, within Brian's area this methodology is being adopted with regional training being conducted to ensure (hopefully) a consistant approach.

Only time will tell whether this is effective, but at least we,ve recognised the problem and are seeking to address it.

Offline Brian Catton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2005, 08:37:12 PM »
Nice to hear it. Is this package avail on any websites?

Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2425
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2005, 09:53:35 PM »
Another oppurtunity is the facility for apeals to the ODPM this means that policy officers will consider disputes rather than the courts.

You may not always agree with them but, it will spead up the process (or at least it could) and help clarify what's what by setting a form of precedent.

carol 12

  • Guest
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2005, 09:59:50 PM »
Yes the whole shooting match is available on the CFOA web site. It is a little difficult to navigate and will probably link you to Hampshire's web site. They are definitely draft documents at the moment but the ODPM are showing signs of signing up to some of them.

The audit form is very good (I didn't write it!) and is designed to collect building risk data for both fire safety enforcement and FSEC data,(regional controls, etc...so the Fire Service can send less fire engines to your premises) :-)

Part of the national training is being rolled out in Manchester at the moment and will hopefully, if fully diseminated to FRS across the country, promote more consistency.

Many of us are painfully aware of instances of bad practise but the problem mainly stems from those who regard FS as a stepping stone to the real business of putting out fires after they have happened!!!

Offline PhilB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2005, 09:05:14 AM »
I read the draft policy directive last night and alarm bells are ringing!! Under the section 'Assessment of Risks' it states:

"The record should include all the identified significant findings and the measures taken to deal with them.

This would tend to suggest that CFOA believe significant findings are defects only!

Never mind I turn to the Draft Guide To Fire Safety in Offices & Shops for reassurance. This is soon to be published for use by responsible persons and enforcers to assist in achieving consistency.

It defines significant finding as:

"A feature of the premises, it’s contents or occupants that may have an adverse effect on the means of escape in case of fire resulting in a potential risk to persons within or in the vicinity of the premises.".... So significant findings really are deficiencies only!!!!


Perhaps the authors of both of these documents should have at least glanced at the Approved Code of Practice & Guidance for Management of health & Safety at work.

The ACOP explains

"The significant findings should include:

(a) A record of the preventative & protective measures in place to control the risks;

(b) What further action, if any, needs to be taken to reduce the risk sufficiently;

[c] Proof that a suitable and sufficient assessment has been made. (ACOP P.10)

Ah so significant findings means a lot more than a deficiency list!!!!

The ACOP definition is clearly different and better than the new definitions and this situation can only lead to confussion and inconsistency of enforcement. No change there then. Well done everybody!!!!!!

Mindless

  • Guest
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2005, 02:31:11 PM »
Phil,

Nice to know somone else has spotted a potential 'significant' flaw (not finding). When a colleague approached the ODPM on this they were more concerned with where we got a copy of the draft guide from rather than the issue at hand.

Offline PhilB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2005, 03:33:06 PM »
I suppose I will be accused of nit-picking, after all ......how important is a little term like 'significant finding' when complying with or enforcing the RRO?

As long as the guidance gets the important stuff right like, 2.5 minute evacuation time and sticking to travel distances!

This is the most significant reform of fire safety legislation for 35 years...surely they won't get the guidance wrong??

Was that a wheel that just fell off?

Offline martyn brandrick

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2005, 05:28:33 PM »
Consistency and uniformity, not something that sits well within the fire service. It must be something to do with all the different people that get involved.  With the new guidence bound and ready to be rolled out it would have been nice for the fire service to have been able to make comment.  Or the people that understand fire safety to be involved in the production.  The HSE has given loads of guidence on enforcement it just that most do not know where to look (even those drafting the guidence). The term suitable and sufficient is fundemental to enforcing risk assessment, and the definition is there in black and white MHSW regs. ACOP p6.  Why do we need another definition? We dont!!

Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2425
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2005, 07:08:20 PM »
So who are the people "that understand fire safety" that have missed out on producing the guidance? I've yet to meet one.

Personally I think its a mistake not to have a formal consultation on the draft guides.

carol12

  • Guest
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2005, 07:18:54 PM »
The guidance was scrutinised at length by the HSE, HMFSI, CFOA, 4 x Fire Safety Officers, CBI, FBU, British Retail Association and ODPM, it went through several consultations, although admittedly not full public ones, and was the lesser of all evils. Without major stakeholders signing up to it there would have been no guidance!

The definition of significant findings within the guidance has a caveat that indicates the definitions are for the layman. You can pick fault with most of the definitions from a legal/ADB point of view but that isn't the point.

When will professionals understand that the ordinary bloke in the street, not us, will be responsible for carrying out a fire risk assessment. There is absolutely no point producing a document that requires a 'degree in nebosh' to understand it.

Political expediency may not be pretty but it is a reality.

Offline PhilB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2005, 08:05:15 PM »
The consultation obviously was totally ineffective, please tell me it's not too late to amend these documents!!

I do not beleive the document was scrutinised at length by all those and particularly the HSE. If so would someone at the HSE please advise why the definition conflicts with the ACOP.

The ACOP is for the ordinary bloke in the street and gives an excellent definition the new guide gives a different poorer definition. If those involved cannot understand why the term 'significant finding' is so important it concerns me greatly.

Political expediency may not be pretty but it is a reality!!!! Carol be serious...do you seriously think that producing guidance documents for responsible persons that clearly states that significant findings are only deficiencies will not cause confussion.

The ordinary bloke in the street without a NEEBOSH will still have to carryout a RA to comply with HSAWA and will be given one definition of significant finding. When he carries out his fire RA he will be told something completley different.

I know the truth hurts, but let's face it...someone has dropped a big clanger here...anyone owning up??

Offline SaxonX

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2005, 12:10:05 PM »
Phil - please explain, am I missing the point?

"A feature of the premises, it’s contents or occupants that may have an adverse effect on the means of escape in case of fire resulting in a potential risk to persons within or in the vicinity of the premises.".... So significant findings really are deficiencies only!!!!

Surely this definition includes not only deficiencies but "features" of the premises .....it then goes on to include "contents & occupants" ?

Offline stevew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • http://firesureuk.co.ok
Enforcement by Brigades. How can consistency/uniformity be achieved?
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2005, 09:18:39 PM »
Just been running an eye over various FA web sites.  They all appear to rightly place the employer responsible under the FPWP Regs.  However none draw the employers attention to the Management H&S Regs requiring the appointment of a competent person to assist.

No wonder the FPWKP Regs have been such a failure when enforcing authorities are selective in their guidance.   Still as long as 'the ash trays are emptied at the end of the day' all will be safe.  This significant finding represented 50% of a FRA carried out in a hotel by a H&S Advisor.   Money well spent?