Author Topic: nightsafe insulation  (Read 4560 times)

Offline lingmoor

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nightsafe insulation
« on: May 29, 2013, 03:49:22 PM »
Hi all

A hospital has refurbished an area off the Hospital Street to incorporate a night safe in the Street wall. This is about 12" square and 9 inches deep into the wall, where the nightsafe key deposit rotating drum thingy is located...staff reach into this 9" deep hole in the wall and put keys etc in the drum, rotate it and the items get deposited into the safe in the locked cash room

ok that crap description over... the wall on a Street is 60 minutes FR and the surface around the safe will be fire stopped...now if there is a fire in the cash office the steel safe could be heated to a temperature so that the heat radiates through to the non-fire side...can anyone recommend a product that will insulate the nightsafe from heat?

cheers
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 03:51:16 PM by lingmoor »

Offline nearlythere

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Re: nightsafe insulation
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2013, 07:58:07 AM »
Could a small door and frame to fr standard not be placed over the safe door on the office side?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline wee brian

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Re: nightsafe insulation
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 09:23:28 AM »
We wouldn't ask for insulation for a doorway, why bother for a rotating steel drum thingy that's half the size of a door?

Offline SamFIRT

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Re: nightsafe insulation
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 09:42:43 AM »
I don’t normally comment on FRA posts but....

Personally, I can't see how radiated heat from the rotating steel wall safe heated by a fire inside the finance room could ignite anything in the corridor apart from the wall it is mounted to... (And if that is 60 min FR?)… and anything in the immediate vicinity of the outside of the wall safe. The immediate area in front of the safe in the corridor would be clear by necessity in order for access to use the safe to be maintained?

So what could ignite?

Also would there not be detection in the finance room? So a fire would be detected before it developed to heat the safe? Would it not?  :-\

Smoke emanation into the street is a different matter. Seals?

Just thoughts.
Sam

Offline Fishy

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Re: nightsafe insulation
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 12:58:14 PM »
I believe that the exemption of doorsets from the Insulation criterion was, as had been said, mooted because of the assumption that doors wouldn’t have combustible stuff placed against or in front of them (otherwise they wouldn’t be very useful as doors) and also, I believe, to deal with the fact that in ‘olden days’ you could only get non-insulating f/r glass, so if you insisted on insulation performance you couldn’t have vision panels in doors.  They probably also didn’t want to ‘legislate’ against steel fire doors & roller shutters (which are really difficult to design to be insulating). That still applies today, though we do have limitations on the extent of un-insulated glazing in Table A4 of the E&W Approved Doc B.

So... if one could satisfy oneself that the same assumption could be made, & if one were confident that the wall-coverings were specified so they wouldn’t ignite if the metal got hot, & that the contents of the safe were likely to be substantially non-combustible, then I’d have thought you might be able to make the case.  I’m not sure detection is much of mitigation – when considering trade-offs against F/R detection is only really useful if it means something subsequently happens to keep the fire small or to put it out - & I’m not sure you could make that argument here?  On a hospital street I think you’d have to assume that escape could be a drawn-out process, so it’s one of those places where I always regard reliable fire resistance as being really important.

If you did decide that you wanted to insulate the safe then I don’t think you could do much better than line the aperture with a 2-3 of layers of plasterboard or something else made of gypsum.  Gypsum has lots of water chemically bound into its molecular structure, which will never become liberated at room temperature but in a fire it gets hot enough to be released.  The plasterboard cannot physically get above 100 degrees C until the water in it is driven off – so it’s very good at keeping the things behind it cool, until it becomes completely desiccated (better than some of the specialist f/r boards).  You don't say what the wall is made of - I'm assuming it's masonry?  If it's dry-lining then I would be worried about the installation wrecking the F/R of the wall, fire stopping or no fire-stopping.