Fire Extinguishers - Discrepancy in guidance between Lacors and everything else

[Suttonfire]

Hi All,

I, along with most others in industry with whom I have discussed the above, am of the opinion the fire extinguishers should not be provided within the common parts of HMO's, residential properties where trained staff are not on hand. However, the Lacors guidance conflicts with this, in that it suggests that 'multi purpose' purpose extinguishers should be provided on the storey landings at both of the above types of property - whether staff are available or not.

I wondered whether anyone agrees with the Lacors guidance (in principle - I know that you need to do an individual risk assessment per site, but the general guidance in Lacors differs greatly from the other main guidance publications).

[lancsfirepro]

Communal areas of purpose built flats are where you wouldn't normally expect to see fire extinguishers - where they operate a stay put policy.  I'd expect to see extinguishers in other properties where their policy is to evacuate the building on discovering a fire.

[Suttonfire]

Thanks for coming back to me.

Would you also still have that view of it is evident that the communal area fire extinguishers have been subject to misuse (tamper seal removed etc) and used to prop doors open etc.

The bed sits I am looking at also have a high turnover of occupants, so not very realistic to continuously give guidance on the selection and operation of extinguishers. I would have thought in these circumstances that it is best not to have extinguishers - irrespective of whether a stay put policy is in place or not.

[lancsfirepro]

Would you also still have that view of it is evident that the communal area fire extinguishers have been subject to misuse (tamper seal removed etc) and used to prop doors open etc.

I would. Though where a high likelihood of tampering is evident I would recommend more frequent visual checks than monthly (as in BS 5306-3:2009).  The responsible person should carry out visual inspections of all extinguishers regularly. These visual inspections should be carried out at least monthly. When circumstances require, inspections should be carried out more frequently.

It's natural selection at work - idiots mess with fire extinguishers... idiots cannot use fire extinguishers in an emergency.... idiots are no more.

[Paul2886]

Whether stay put or not is it wise for a tenant to run from their flat and return with a fire extinguisher potentially contaminating the escape routes for others. The fire authorities have a strong message which is 'get out and stay out'. Not go back in and have a go.

[colin todd]

Gazza the Coal, you forgot another category- Idiots enforce the FSO and sometimes think FEA is required even in PBBF.  (Retters excepted of course)

[AnthonyB]

Don't forget the LACORS guide is relatively old now and guidance has moved on - powder extinguishers are rather frowned upon these days (you could use water mist but this creates its own argument...)

The last few times I've ever been in true HMOs the extinguishers have always been tampered with and the tenants not the sort you would expect to safely use an extinguisher -  getting them roused and out safely would be the priority.

[William 29]

I personally don't rate LACoRS as a good guide full stop. FFE in such premises where the occupants can not be trained due to high turnovers is a bad idea. The recommending of dry powder extinguishers is also poor advice in a confirmed escape route and I would argue requires more training to operate than other types of extinguishers, they also have limited cooling properties.

[AnthonyB]

They are nasty things these days (especially as the powder is not the relatively inert sodium bicarb of the old days) I was watching the New Zealand show 'Motorway Patrol' over the weekend and the cop used his ABC powder extinguisher on a truck engine fire and even outdoors he was coughing and spluttering from the discharge (not the fire, it was caught very early - oil dripping onto the battery cables). The fire brigade after using CO2 went to powder, but had to don SCBA first and even then water was still required as there was too much heat & it was re-striking the flames.

[The Colonel]

One problem that throws a spanner in the works is that different HMO licensing authorities adopt different rules, some insist on DPs in communal areas despite type of build and guidance, whilst others adopt common sense and more up to date guidance. Did a FRA on a purpose built block of flats last week and discovered 3 newish DPs one on each floor, when the management company rep was asked why they were there the answer was we had some money last year so we put them in. After explaining the pros and cons including training and the new guidance of their installation I think they will be coming out very soon

[Suttonfire]

Thanks for all the responses....

Quick question, if guidance for HMO's bedsits etc has moved on since the Lacors guidance, as suggested above. What is considered to be the most up to date guidance for these type of accommodation? I note that the purpose built flats guidance reference Lacors and DCLG (which pre dates it).

Thanks

[William 29]

Thanks for all the responses....

Quick question, if guidance for HMO's bedsits etc has moved on since the Lacors guidance, as suggested above. What is considered to be the most up to date guidance for these type of accommodation? I note that the purpose built flats guidance reference Lacors and DCLG (which pre dates it).

Thanks

There was a national HMO document but this will be quite old now. I tend to look at some of the local agreement/procedural documents that are around between the Local Authorities and Fire Authorities, you should be able to get these if you ask.

[AnthonyB]

I think the issues are that LACORS is the current complete guide for the sector it covers and is suffering from individual aspects (such as extinguishers) being superseded by newer guidance.

A full revision would be of most use, you could have LGA Guide 1 - Purpose Built Flats and replace LACORS with a new LGA Guide 2 - Conversions and HMOs