old pubs - no protected route

[Wils]

Dear all,
My 1st post, so please be kind! What is your opinion for m.o.e. solutions where, (mainly in old pubs, restaurants, etc), stairways end in the middle of the ground floor and it is not possible to create a protected route to a final exit. 

[kurnal]

I would consider how many floors the building has, who if anyone sleeps in the building and where, the standard of any alarm system and whether window exits would be appropriate or if it is possible to create alternative routes, separated from each other  from the base of the staircase. If its more than ground and first floor it is likely to be challenging to resolve.

[Wils]

Thanks Kurnal. I should have been more specific, I'm learning. Ground and first floor, staff accommodation on 1st floor but no possibility of creating a protected route through ground floor pub/restaurant to final exit. Is it ever acceptable to have suitable escape windows only? Would that fly in the face of basic fire safety principles?

[kurnal]

Escape windows are deemed acceptable for domestic premises provided certain conditions (see ADB for details) are met. In real life they are from ideal but are recognised in ADB.

But these are not domestic premises. Generally guidance under the Fire Safety Order would not entertain them as suitable for any premises to which the Order applies.

In a 2 storey building, you might argue, having truly exhausted all other possibilities, that the fire will behave the same and the fire will not know whether the premises are domestic or not. And therefore if any member of the public can rely on a window escape from their dwelling then for able bodied members of staff in their bedroom in a small pub of similar size to a dwelling the level of risk is no greater than they might face at home.

But such an argument is grasping at straws and you must exhaust all other potential avenues first - there may be other solutions eg reviewing arrangements at the base of the staircase to create a choice of separated routes, moving the staircase, utilising flat roofs, sprinkler protection etc.   

[Mike Buckley]

You could also look at the possibility of an extenal fire escape from the first floor.

[Wils]

Thanks to both of you for your excellent advice. I will be able to acheive a choice of separated routes at ground level along with escape windows.

[Davo]

Stopped in a 300 year old inn last week in Grassington, 15 rooms.
Centre exit only from 1st and second floor stairs into bar area.
Sliding lattice shutter closes the bar area and front door off at night (padlock and chain)(no staff)
Side exit to side door past the kitchen and dining area, no signage at all, EL Ok-ish, approx 20m travel.
Lots of other issues I will omit, just to say signage and lighting as people may be unfamiliar and possibly worse for wear!

davo

[jokar]

You have an almost impossible tak.  60 minute separataion, from ground to first decent detection and warning and an escape window to ADB may be the answer as regards ALARP.

[Meerkat]

I assessed one a bit like this a month or two ago.  250 years old, two floors above ground level, single unprotected staircase discharges into rear area of bar.  No AFD, no EL, no electronic fire alarm, windows above the ground floor too small to act as escape windows even if that was acceptable, nowhere to put an external stair even if the listed building consent could be obtained, open fire in the bar area.  Owners taking their life in their hands every single night sleeping on the second floor.

A week after I put in my report with lots of "High priority" comments, there was a fire in a building on the other side of the road.  When the article caught my eye on Google and I saw the words "fire" and "XXXX Road" my heart stopped for a minute.  When I realised it wasn't my clients but a building literally opposite them I dropped them a quick e-mail to check all was OK.  Their eyes had been opened somewhat by seeing the speed with which the old building had gone up and they were well on the way to putting things right in their own building as far as possible.

[Wils]

I'm sure this is a common problem throughout the UK and the answers provided earlier fit the bill nicely, otherwise.....prohibition?

[Fraudley]

I'm sure this is a common problem throughout the UK and the answers provided earlier fit the bill nicely, otherwise.....prohibition?

Depends. . If you apply a one dimensional attitude to all the pubs in London you'd be mad. An IO has to take into account the attitude of management, their procedures, and their understanding of their responsibilities as well as the basic principles of fire safety.Whats the level of protection and detection. There are many factors to take into account before prohibiting.

Prohibition (not just in fire safety) is all too often the first thought of someone who is either on a power trip, or just doesn't have the skills to manage a solution and find a compromise that works for all parties.
If you want to spark a real debate on this, ask IO's to discuss bar staff that live above a pub.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Prohibition is the last resort.

What does need to be clarified is the term "staff accommodation" are we talking a about the manager's flat or individual rooms for staff. lacors guidance gives some advice on the separation between low risk commercial and domestic flat above and accepts decent fire warning system and 30 mins FR, with window escape, would anybody be at significant risk.

This I/O isn't on a power trip and willing to compromise, unfortunately there are plenty who aren't.

[Midland Retty]

Yep prohibition is always, always the last resort because you could effectively be making someone homeless when you prohibit which is very serious.

As DD says it would all depend on whether it was just the managers accommodation above or if other Relevant Persons (not connected with the pub) were asleep up there.

That all said If window escape is permitted in HMOs (including HMOs above commercial premises, two storeys in height etc), why couldn't it be permitted here - far from ideal but it means the premises are atleast not prohibitable I would suggest.


 

[Wils]

Indeed! Although I'd say we have used prohibition as a short-term solution where all other avenues have been carefully assessed and always with a view to correcting the problem with a Notice. Certainly no 'power trips' allowed in my team!    I always ask myself if anything we do will pass the 'Daily Mail test', 'gripping the bar', etc, etc.......