Self Closers on Deck Access Flats

[William 29]

Hi All,

I am just looking for a balance of opinions on self-closers on open deck access flats, i.e. where the flats open directly on to a balcony. The flats in question are two storey with a central open concrete stair giving access to flats either side of the stair with 5 flats on each side of the stair, so there are two dead ends.

The original doors have been replaced (probably 1960's build and would have been fitted with rising butt hinges) with new style fire rated FD30 doors but the self-closers were omitted because most tenants are elderly/frail or have mobility difficulties and could not open their flat doors. I think most of us would know that there is a conflict within ADB and ADM over the force required to close/open a fire door.

The flats guide would indicate that self-closers should be fitted, however if we recommended that approach it would apply to several hundred doors. There is non FR glazing above 1.1m in some doors and also in the windows adjacent to the flats (kitchens). I am just debating if the risk is any greater if there is a fire in a flat and the occupant leaves the door open, is that any different than the principle of other occupants ducking under a 1.1m non FR window? The flats are also suitable for a stay put policy.

I am just not sure that the benefit of installing self closers provides much reduction in risk balanced against substantial costs and also given it is likely that the occupants would disconnect the self closer anyway?

Any thoughts please?


 

[Tom W]

I would go a step further and require free swing on all.

[kurnal]

And what type of free swing would you recommend Piglet?

And are you likely to have an accoustic signal to operate it?

How wide is the deck William? and how open?

[William 29]

I would go a step further and require free swing on all.

Why would you do that? 

[William 29]

And what type of free swing would you recommend Piglet?

And are you likely to have an accoustic signal to operate it?

How wide is the deck William? and how open?

Around 1250mm wide, the flat doors open directly on to the balcony with no overhang above and are open to air at one end and lead to an open air concrete stair in the middle of each block. There are 4 or 5 flats at each end, so the occupier of the end flat has to pass 3/4 other flats before they get to the open stair. Tried to enclose a pic but file is too big.

[Tom W]

I would go a step further and require free swing on all.

Why would you do that? 

Why would you want force in daily operation when you don't have to? Be mindful of the Equality Act and old dears carrying their shopping.

Why reduce one risk and add another?

There is indeed a fine wire free swing free system Kurnal

[Dinnertime Dave]

Don't see a great problem here. Why would the person need to pass the flat on fire? Would they not just stay put?

[Firey Fellow]

I wouldn't be overly worried.

In theory if someone has exited their flat because its on fire, you would think they would call the fire service, or that a passer by will eventually notice and call it in.

Neighbouring residents should be able to remain safely in their flats, 'til brigade arrives and deals with it.

[Davo]

What about the non-FR glazing in the doors?

Don't like the idea of closers at all, too many issues

davo

[William 29]

What about the non-FR glazing in the doors?

Don't like the idea of closers at all, too many issues

davo

There is non FR glazing in some doors above 1.1m which is fine under all the codes, which is why I cant see the need for the closers? But all the codes would recommend them. (CP3, 5588:1, new flats guide, 9991)

Thanks all for the responses!

[Phoenix]

I would find it hard to justify the expense and inconvenience of recommending self closers in this case.  They will be expensive to install, the locks on the doors may also need to be changed, people will find them less easy to use in daily life and may be inclined to disable or remove the closers anyway.  

I would be inclined to make a rigorous check of the compartmentation between flats before making a decision.  If in any doubt about its reliability then self closers might be a justifiable option.

Stu