Acceptable carehome evac times

[Haggis]

Current guidance and post war studies aside does anyone have a professional option on, or from knowledge/experience of previous fire loss in carehomes on the following question:

Is 15 minutes an acceptable time to evacuate a single protected compartment (30 mins on all rooms) by 2 members of staff during a night shift?

All rooms on the corridor are 30min protected, swing free closers, L1 AFD, limited furnishings within

[Clevelandfire 3]

how many bedrooms need to be evacuated? and how have you arrived at 15 minutes is this based on a drill?

[Haggis]

8 bedrooms, 1 resident per bedroom. The time was taken from recent fire drill practices (around 12-15 mins per drill) as the staff numbers has dropped to 2 on duty overnights.

Residents with varied dependancies. Resdients are awakened, assisted onto a wheelchair and taken throught to the next 60 min compartment

Thanks

[Dinnertime Dave]

Need more staff. HTM 84 gives max number of beds permitted in sub compartment.

7 beds - 2 or 3 staff awake at all times
9 beds 4 or more staff awake at all times

It is possible to risk assess residents needs or use fully addressable fire alarm to reduce numbers.

[kurnal]

The fire service will expect that the staff will have evacuated the sub compartment involved by the time they arrive and if this is not achieved questions are likely to be asked. In a recent nursing home fire (fatal) I have investigated, it took 3 staff 10 minutes to evacuate 4 persons. I have usually assumed it will take 2.5 minutes per person from observing and conducting training and the fire experience bore that out perfectly.

But more staff   isn't usually a practical, affordable or realistic solution. Putting extra doors in corridors is sometimes an option but in existing buildings this often cannot be achieved. 

I usually try and get it down to 4 rooms per sub compartment  as a goal but cannot usually achieve it in existing buildings. Above 7 I start to get nervous. And bedrooms apart also consider what happens if a fire starts in the tv set in the lounge  with all residents dozing after lunch (google Frinton care home fire)

Buts lets get too hung up worrying about the time taken to evacuate because preventive and protective measures are much better value. Get these right and do what you can within reason in terms of compartment size and you will not be found wanting.

[Dinnertime Dave]

HH - where or who in your 12-15 mins calls the fire service, can all staff evacuate 8 residents in this time?  If I was presented with your solution during an audit I would look very closely at the EP.

Larger compartments need more staff to evacuate. It is physically demanding. The starting point I have used on giving advice on new and older homes is "how many staff do you need for clinical reasons?" If this is more than is needed for fire evacuation then there is less opportunity to save money. (I don't apologise for saying saving money because ultimately this is what makes providers sit up and take notice). However, if they are employing staff purely to evacuate residents in the event of a fire then savings can be made by -

Installing additional FR to reduce compartment sizes as per Kurnal's suggestion.
Putting in an addressable FWS - saving time on identifying the room on fire.
If possible spreading the more vulnerable residents around the home.

Again I agree with Kurnal that the protective and preventative measure right and the need for evacuation is reduced considerably. I also encourage providers to give good quality training in the use of extinguishers using the argument that if you can put a small fire out you remove the need for evacuating residents reducing the risks around manual handling.

[Haggis]

Thanks for all the informative replies. This is the reasoning i require to make my concerns tangible to the powers that be BUT ultimately yes.... the decision has been made based around money. Regards care provision/clinical needs the care commission have not expressed any concerns with only 2 staff members for over night periods.

The fire prevention within the care home is of a good standard and the likelihood of fire was asessed as low. The FWS is addressable for quick determination of the rooms, communal areas etc.

DD: 1 staff member makes the 999 call and then begins to assist with evacuation. But yes the physical ability of all staff who may be working the night shift will vary (in fact some of the staff may be due getting a residential place within the care home itself!!)

- A linked FWS operation has been recommended (but many say that a manual call should also be made?? thus eliminating some saved time!!)
- Sub-comaprtmentation has been recommended (and will go ahead within the next 12-18 months)
- Fire extinguisher training for staff is achievable and has already begun
- Retro-fit for water suppression....forget it!!

Kurnal: Good point regards Frinton Care Home
Also where could i obtain some precedence on the fatal you are taking about?


Cheers

[kurnal]

I came across the following book that containes (at the end) some very useful data on times taken to evacuate persons using various techniques and takes account of performance diminishing as carers become tired. Well worth a look.

EVACUATING VULNERABLE AND DEPENDENT
PEOPLE FROM BUILDINGS IN AN EMERGENCY
David Crowder and David Charters

First published 2013 BRE Trust
ISBN 978-1-84806-264-1