Author Topic: BS 9999 exit flow rates  (Read 16105 times)

Offline G. N. Hamilton

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BS 9999 exit flow rates
« on: September 08, 2014, 08:14:59 AM »
I know this topic has been discussed before and I've had a read through the threads which were helpful. Has anyone been able to ascertain or are reports available for the exit width discharge capacities that are implicit in Table 13. It seems to have come a long way from the 40 persons per unit width (0.525) per minute that has been the general application within more prescriptive guidance.

The 2.02 persons per metre per second for a risk profile A1 downward to 1.11 per metre per second for a risk profile C3. Maybe the reference is staring me in the face within the code but I couldn't see it.

Its just seem a bit off the wall when comparing to Table D2 of PD 7974-6 and research by Nelson and Mowrer (which is accepted as good FSE practice). If there is research available, any advice on where to obtain it would be appreciated.

Also I know a review was undertaken, is a new revision on the cards any time soon

Offline kurnal

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2014, 12:42:19 PM »
I don't know if this was the methodology but the tables in 7974-6 assume a 2.5 minute evacuation whereas the tables in 9999 are supposed to be a  simplistic  non engineered means to take into account the increased time available for safe evacuation that arise from the provision of additional fire precautions........but even then there are inconsistencies in the tables....

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2014, 07:51:35 PM »

If there is research available, any advice on where to obtain it would be appreciated.

As far as I understand BS 9999 was considered a half-way house between ADB and PD 7974, a prescriptive approach using fire engineering. If this is the case then crowd movement, which is based on liquid dynamics,(?) would be relevant to this subject. I saw a program on TV "Bang goes the theory series 6 episode 4" about the movement of crowds, and used Dr Keith Still as the adviser. He may be able to help considering he has researched the subject for some time. He also has many papers by other people that may throw light on this subject.

http://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-maths-technology/mathematics-and-statistics/mathematics/do-crowds-behave-fluids

http://www.gkstill.com/CV/PhD/Papers.html

All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Mike Buckley

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2014, 09:28:00 AM »
If I remember correctly the figures were arrived at following a series of tests with a column of soldiers marching into a series of gaps of different widths. In the dim and distant past I remember seeing a film of the tests.

Exactly how accurate the figures are is obviously open to question, however if you consider the period of time they have been in use and the perceived lack of an incident which raised any doubt in the figures they would appear to be a reasonable estimate.

I had a quick look at the papers from Keith Still and his observations seemed to be on the way crowds, move not on the numbers passing through a gap.
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Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2014, 01:56:07 PM »
Mike which figures are you talking about the 40/min/unit width or the fire engineering approach?
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline kurnal

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2014, 01:57:45 PM »
Mike is correct, the history of this goes back a long way.
One key document explaining the current philosophy was the post-war building studies number 29-fire grading of buildings.

The following text was copied from this document.

"The question of traffic movement in exits has been the subject of investigation and test at various times in both this country and abroad. Only a limited number of tests have been made in this country. Figures for eight tests have been published in appendices to the factories act 1937. More extensive tests have been made in America notably by the United States bureau of standards, the results of which are presented in their publication Design and Construction of Building Exits (1935). These tests have, with one or two exceptions, being carried out under random flow conditions i.e. in the course of the normal use of the buildings where the tests were made or during fire drills. The observations were of course made whilst the exits were being used to capacity as far as could be judged. It is useful to compare these tests with the results of experiments carried out by the Paris fire brigade with Firemen under controlled conditions. These results, published in 1938 and 1945, helped to isolate the effect of certain factors which have an influence on the rate of movement in exits."

There is then a section talking about the use of unit widths which for the purpose of their studies were taken as 21 inches.  

To continue quoting from the document

"The results given in appendix 1 showing disconcertingly wide variation. The rate of movement on stairs varies between 19 and 107 persons per unit weight per minute the extreme figures can be readily discounted for practical purposes but there still remains a considerable variation to be taken into account in fixing a reasonable figure for determining means of escape requirements. Consideration of the test results on the available explanatory notes indicates that the features of traffic movement phenomena in which variation can occur may be considered under four headings:

urgency motive controlling speed of movement
pressure and flow from waiting crowd
relative effectiveness of wide and narrow exits
other characteristics"

There are then numerous paragraphs explaining these factors, relative effectiveness of wide and narrow exits and other factors including a comparison of existing code figures for discharge rates. Hence the recommendation that the practical range of values for the discharge rate during escape would be about 30 to 45 persons per unit width per  minute.

Remember the unit width was taken as 21 inches and the desired benchmark evacuation time was 2.5minutes.
21 inches equates to 533mm two units would therefore pass 80 person per minute for 2.5 minutes = 200 persons. Lo and behold 1066mm divided by 200 persons equates to 5.33mm per person.

Remember also that the actual flow rates measured in the various tests ranged from 19 to 107 persons per unit width per minute and that this cannot therefore be an exact science! But the system has proved itself over the years.

I believe where BS9999 is coming from is that if, because of early detection or a high ceiling etc the premises are actually safe for three minutes then the same 1066mm exit could pass 3 x 80 = 240 persons in that time or alternatively for 200 people you would only need to provide 4.4mm/ person.

One major difference between BS 9999 and previous studies is that all previous works were careful to specify that such interpolation should only take place for exits of at least two unit widths. BS 9999 ignores such advice and allows such interpolation to be applied to any exit irrespective of width. In my opinion this is the most dodgy aspect of BS 9999.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 10:43:20 PM by kurnal »

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2014, 10:05:11 AM »
As previously stated the, 40 persons/minute/unit width, comes from PWS no 29 and if you wish to read it for yourself, check out http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/DataBase/References/HMSO%2052_Fire%20grading%20of%20buildings%20Parts%202%20to%204.pdf

However as far as I understand BS 9999 uses an approach based on fire safety engineering principles and research. Also it is considered a half-way house between ADB and PD 7974. I would think this means the width of exits would be calculated using fire evacuation computer models and ASET/RSET. If this is the case then there would have been no research other than how good the person or persons using the computer software and how accurate when calculating ASET/RSET.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline G. N. Hamilton

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2014, 10:09:52 AM »
Thanks for responses so far. I'm researching this at the minute and have read the Post War Building Studies No. 29 (1952) and NBS Design and Construction of Building Exits (1935). Also I have reasonable knowledge of PD 7974-6. I have been using BS9999 sporadically due to a lack of confidence in it and the fact that it ties the building down to a management level which is difficult to regulate. Generally as I see it, a M2 management level would be required to meet statutory obligations and would be difficult to improve upon as most don't achieve it.

The scenario above is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of so I can assess whether a proposed risk profile is suitable for a particular premises. A bar is specified as B2 (indicative only I know but latched onto by most) and with additional protection measures exits can be 3.3mm/person. The descriptions of examples regarding the fire growth rates are worse than useless for assigning a category to most buildings. i.e. where does a bar with wall fixed upholstered seating, timber bar counter arrangement and alcoholic spirits fit into this. For one of the critical parts of the code, it really falls down here.

Ok so the more favourable the risk category and additional fire protection measures the greater the ASET for the building. It is essentially this information I'm looking for. i.e. the research and data that demonstrates that a risk profile XX will allow an ASET of XX mins.

I also agree that the interpolation of exit capacity below the 2 units of exits widths is a unknown departure from a previously accepted fundamental. BSi please explain???

Offline Mike Buckley

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2014, 11:20:26 AM »
Had a look at the Post War Building Studies Document referenced by Tom.

Fascinating and it includes the magic 2 1/2 minute evacuation time!!!!! paragraph 243
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Offline colin todd

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 10:16:05 PM »
I blame Sigmund Neuberger for the whole thing. I have even made a pilgrimage to his grave in Piershill cemetery Edinburgh (the capital of the universe) and said a few words of thanks to him (and his wee dog) for the consultancy fees he generated as the greatest ever of his magic tricks.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2014, 07:27:13 AM »
GNH i feel certain you will not find such information. A number of us sought it when 9999 was first issued as a draft by BSI but had no response to our questions. It's all arbitrary, founded in ideas that 2.5 minutes is a suitable evacuation time for most buildings, but remember guidance to the 1971Act that used to suggest 2 minutes was appropriate for combustible buildings and 3 minutes for non combustible buildings. Remember also that like most new BSI standards, 9999 was not written by a committee of the great and the good, it had a single, well respected author who was an experienced building surveyor who burned his own midnight oil to author the document and develop the concept.

The draft  was then  considered by a BSI steering group pulled together for the purpose ( sadly nowadays due to economics these tend to be composed  not of experts from non profit making organisations but by industry with a vested interest- see the recent 5306-8 for evidence of this and the outcome).

Naturally the author, having burned the midnight oil and being the only one who at that stage who fully understands the background to the thought process involved does not welcome any  proposed change that is not fully worked through and agreeable to him for direct inclusion without further work by himself. Such well researched and fully rounded responses are rare.

So it goes through and all of a sudden the arbitrary becomes prescriptive for those who only seek to apply guidance rather than understand it. Sadly these days the majority in my experience.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 07:31:46 AM by kurnal »

Offline G. N. Hamilton

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Re: BS 9999 exit flow rates
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2014, 08:21:01 AM »


Ok so the more favourable the risk category and additional fire protection measures the greater the ASET for the building.


Some fire protection measures do not increase ASET but, instead, reduce RSET (e.g. automatic detection and warning).



It is essentially this information I'm looking for. i.e. the research and data that demonstrates that a risk profile XX will allow an ASET of XX mins.



Good luck.




Sorry I was referring generally to FADS and ceiling height