Primary Authority Scheme

[idlefire]

Does anyone out there know where I can find current guidance on exactly how the Primary Authority scheme works?

I have spoken to numerous people who are involved in it but I am yet to hear a real consensus.

[Tom Sutton]

Check out https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/primary-authority-handbook could help.

[Dinnertime Dave]

The Handbook Tom refers to gives most answers. I run 4 of them at present. What specifically do you need to know.

[kurnal]

Why don't fire brigades stick to their core functions and focus their efforts and resources within their own communities? All this dilution with such schemes, setting up quasi fra and training businesses, servicing extinguishers and alarms, political involvement in all manner of role model schemes it all leads to confusion, administrative burden, reduced control over available resources and unforeseen additional expense. Most make little or no money doing it especially if properly accounted for without the subsidy of staff costs already employed. Stop playing at being businesses and remember the best traditions of the fire service. end of rant Time to go back to the cave I suppose.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Why don't fire brigades stick to their core functions and focus their efforts and resources within their own communities? All this dilution with such schemes, setting up quasi fra and training businesses, servicing extinguishers and alarms, political involvement in all manner of role model schemes it all leads to confusion, administrative burden, reduced control over available resources and unforeseen additional expense. Most make little or no money doing it especially if properly accounted for without the subsidy of staff costs already employed. Stop playing at being businesses and remember the best traditions of the fire service. end of rant Time to go back to the cave I suppose.

Primary Authority does none of the things you mention. It doesn't do fire risk assessments, training, we don't do extinguisher servicing or alarms. All my PAs use third party accredited risk assessors or employ their own fire advisors who are highly qualified. it is about supporting business from inconsistent advice mainly from regulators but strangely I spend much of my time clarifying over provision from risk assessors.

Financially the cost is based on cost recovery.

[kurnal]

Hi Dave
Thanks. Sorry my  point got lost in the rant. The point is that the primary authority scheme should not and would not be necessary if brigades did their core job in a consistent and effective manner. I believeit was frustration with varying standards and inconsistency that led to the schemes being set up through pressure from big business  - the only part of our society that seems to have influence these days. But the very cracks that are papered over by primary authority schemes have a deep impact on the local level of service in many brigades. And the best way of solving the problem in my view would be to go back to doing the basics well. Otherwise enforcement will be evenually be privatised completely. And if Building Control privatisation is an example of how that would go I am not optimistic for the future.

Please correct me i I have this all wrong.

[William 29]

We have two large clients with a substantial number of premises across the North West. Both have adopted to sign up to the Primary Authority Partnership. The main motivation for both has been due to inconsistence enforcement.

We have had several meetings with the Primary Authority chosen, they have reviewed our FRAs and methodology and so far we have found the process to be of benefit to the clients.

[Dinnertime Dave]

kurnal, everyone is entitled to a rant or opinion. You are right in what you say that if all regulators were consistent then you may not have a need for PA, but we all know from posts on this forum there are many different views on how to deal with an issue. Fire safety only joined the party last year, PA had been in place for many years prior to that for food hygiene, food labelling etc many brigades aren't up for it stating lack of resources. About 50% have a partner at present, 95% of partnerships generate between ?1000-?5000pa.

BRDO at a recent awards congratulated fire services for their positive approach to PA, they gave our attitude  as an example for other regulators to follow. It may be because with only 46 brigades when issues arise we pick up a telephone and talk.

It offers consistency which leads to confidence, cost savings and support, and as William says they have found it to be a benefit.

[kurnal]

BRDO at a recent awards congratulated fire services for their positive approach to PA, they gave our attitude  as an example for other regulators to follow.

well they would wouldnt they because it reinforces their own expensive self serving empire operated at taxpayers expense and delivering very little . If you put all such departments together and axed the lot the savings would be phenomenal and few would notice. Look how the world stopped turning when Standards for England were axed a few years ago.

[JT]

I must agree the primary authority scheme, when discussed with other professions is laughable. "Because fire services aren't competent, you have to pay for consistent enforcement?"
Imagine if we paid a police force for consistent enforcement???

[kurnal]

95% of partnerships generate between ?1000-?5000pa.  

It would be interesting to know how many hours work it takes to support these partnerships. If you take the cost of employing someone as a rule of thumb as approximately double their income this gives you one figure. Say the average officer is paid a salary of ?25k (conservative I know) so take the cost of employment at ?50k to the fire service at 37 hours per week is in the ball park of ?25 per hour. For a ?1000 fee thats 40 hours per year  to break even.  But fire services arent really there to provide support services to industry outside their community so theres the added consideration of the loss of this individuals services to the community that employs them.
Apologies if this is boring, since retiring last month I seem to have too much time on my hands....

[Mike Buckley]

The problem with consistancy has always been there. There are always going to be problems when you have 46 different authorities all of which run the best brigade in the country and have the best ideas about enforcement. The problem was eased to an extent because there was a single training establishment where all the Fire Officers went, now that is gone because a) they started charging for the courses and b) it is being privatised, the end result is more and more Brigades are running their own training and the inconsistancy will increase.

[wee brian]

To be fair to the Brigades, all of us so professional types often come up with differing views on what is or isn't right. so we're inconsistent too.

If you want consistency, you either go to a prescriptive system or always use the same enforcing authority.

[Dinnertime Dave]

95% of partnerships generate between ?1000-?5000pa.  

It would be interesting to know how many hours work it takes to support these partnerships. If you take the cost of employing someone as a rule of thumb as approximately double their income this gives you one figure. Say the average officer is paid a salary of ?25k (conservative I know) so take the cost of employment at ?50k to the fire service at 37 hours per week is in the ball park of ?25 per hour. For a ?1000 fee thats 40 hours per year  to break even.  But fire services arent really there to provide support services to industry outside their community so theres the added consideration of the loss of this individuals services to the community that employs them.

Apologies if this is boring, since retiring last month I seem to have too much time on my hands....

Blimey You must have too much time on your hands. Your figures are way out, clearly I can't give exact figures because it depends what grade you use to but your 50k would give me a group manager including NI and pension costs. But you do have to factor in transport & accomodation. ?25 per hour is way too low. For comparison the association of trading standards officers came up with a figure of approx. ?57ph. I know some brigades charging over ?80 ph. But it isn't about income generation, it's about compliance, if we know a business is being supported through PA do we need to inspect as often. We can concentrate resources on other areas.

With regards supporting business outside my community, you have to look at the bigger picture.  A PA with a housing association may have a reach of 75-100,000 residents. Supporting business creates wealth, which reduces fires, which reduces injuries & deaths.

[kurnal]

Thanks for taking the time to reply Dave, its good to get an inside view.