Suitable and sufficient

[lyledunn]

One of our member clubs applied for an entertainment licence. To obtain one a FRA must be provided along with other documentation. The FRA concluded an occupancy of 80. In considering the application the Council consult with FRS. After reviewing the FRA and inspecting the premises, their conclusion was that 60 should not be exceeded so the club decided not to pursue the application further. No formal communications were made between parties. The original FRA was undertaken by a professional assessor and has been subject to review by
a different company. They did not question occupancy, although no one told them about the licence application situation. How do you feel about this clubs legal position? It was at full capacity on Thursday night when NI hammered Greece!

[kurnal]

Tell the assessors about the licensing issues and ask them to review / re-evaluate their findings. The second assessor is unlikely to have questioned whether there is scope for increasing the numbers if the previous assessor has set out a limit, they are most likely to only confirm the limit is safe. Many are nervous about this concept of reverse ALARP and increasing numbers could be seen as this. There are very different standards of service in this industry and sadly as we dinosaurs retire the majority who replace us are putting turnover and sales targets before a true passion for the subject. I have just retired and my largest client with probably the largest warehouse building in the UK has replaced me with someone whose only  current qualification is having attended a 4 day FRA course.

[Messy]

I have just retired and my largest client with probably the largest warehouse building in the UK has replaced me with someone whose only  current qualification is having attended a 4 day FRA course.

Kurnal - I hear what you are saying, and its clear that someone is wrong here, but is it the fire risk assessors?  I have experience of many local authority licensing teams who employ staff with next to no experience and perhaps less competent than someone who has completed a 4 day FRA course. Many seem to treat the FS guides as prescriptive or rely on outdated council policy. Others seem to just guess!

A London council (with the biggest entertainment team in the UK) attempted to prevent issuing a license to a gentleman's private members club  on the grounds it had a drop down fire curtain which would divert escapees to an alternative MOE if detection was actuated in the usual route (via a retail area). The council's policy was 'No fire curtains on escape routes', and this is what they stuck to, despite the RP supplying a well thought out and proven case.

An outer London council stopped a corner shop/pharmacy having a security mortise lock on their rear customer door. This door led to a local GPs practice so would never be closed during business as it would prevent a major income source for the pharmacy entering the shop.

I shouldn't grumble as I have had some good jobs assisting RPs in overturning these jobsworths, and both of the above example decisions where later reversed. But I don't have a lot of faith in LA licensing teams and their FS knowledge and wonder if this case in NI is another example of another 'by the book' council official?

[kurnal]

Messy I am not apportioning blame, all parties have a duty to give their best advice on this matter and in my view that starts with the specialist fire risk assessors advising the duty holder. They should have sufficient underpinning knowledge to understand the background to the codes and to fully evaluate the situation giving reasons for their findings otherwise the duty holder may as well carry out the FRA themselves. It appears that the position in NI may be further complicated by the legislation in which there may be other relationships between fire risk assessors and enforcers who require the assessment to be carried out by designated authorised companies. Lyle may be able to clarify this.

Then the enforcers have a similar duty to review the findings and themselves evaluate the findings of the FRA against ALARP. Their competence must also include the underpinning knowledge of the assessors otherwise the whole concept of FRA may as well be abandoned and we should revert to a wholly prescriptive regime.
The lack of underpinning knowledge of the fire safety design of buildings, of nature of fire growth and spread, of human behaviour and management are key elements of the failure of those using fast track courses to become fire risk assessors or enforcers almost overnight. In particular it affects so many FRA companies large and small for whom I am afraid marketing is triumphing over quality of FRAs.

[nearlythere]

Tell the assessors about the licensing issues and ask them to review / re-evaluate their findings. The second assessor is unlikely to have questioned whether there is scope for increasing the numbers if the previous assessor has set out a limit, they are most likely to only confirm the limit is safe. Many are nervous about this concept of reverse ALARP and increasing numbers could be seen as this. There are very different standards of service in this industry and sadly as we dinosaurs retire the majority who replace us are putting turnover and sales targets before a true passion for the subject. I have just retired and my largest client with probably the largest warehouse building in the UK has replaced me with someone whose only  current qualification is having attended a 4 day FRA course.

K
The best assessor in the world, in the eyes of the client, is the one who doesn't know what he is doing. The last review I did I noted two stairways serving a young 5 storey building with laminated and safety glass installed in doors enclosing them which was not mentioned in the assessment. All the doors on one stairway could also be checked open. But the thoroughness of the Assessor shone through when he didn't miss an external cigarette bin which was important to have emptied daily and there was also no Assembly Point sign - in the middle of a city street?

[lyledunn]

Thank you for the replies. Our concern is that the club continues to operate with 80. The NIFRS have obviously disagreed with this occupancy level but have not notified the club directly. Have the club discharged their legal duty?
Kurnal, there is no requirement for a professional assessor. However, for such premises local councils are the enforcers and reviewers of the assessments. Not surprisingly they advised duty holders that it would be better to have the base assessment professionally undertaken. Reading between the lines I think that the intention was not to promote fire safety but to make life easier for the poor council official who has to plough his or her way through a pile of, well let's say, unpleasant stuff!