Author Topic: Enforcer and salesmen  (Read 7848 times)

Offline JT

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Enforcer and salesmen
« on: November 09, 2015, 08:08:19 PM »
Should fire brigades have a commercial division?

Fire service selling fire extinguishers:

http://www.britannia-fire.co.uk/news

Offline Golden

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Re: Enforcer and salesmen
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2015, 08:44:17 PM »
Not that I have anything against the P50 but I'd like to see their sums on how its a big money saver? The safelincs site which is excellent in most things runs a price comparison for a 9kg dry powder extinguisher when I can't even find a 9kg P50 DP anywhere!! The P50s are very expensive and realistic comparisons need to be made of the whole life costings including the odd replacement.

Offline JT

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Re: Enforcer and salesmen
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 09:05:52 PM »
I wasn't looking to comment on the p50.
Doubt many normal businesses, schools etc will need a 9kg dry powder.

Not sure the prices but surely 1 foam with di-electric capabilities and 27A rating for example with no annual servicing will be cheaper?
Say around ?30-50 per water based extinguisher x2, plus a co2 at a similar price.
With an annual service price of ?5-10 per extinguisher?? Over 10 years against whatever the p50 is.
Businesses do like to utilise extra space so reducing extinguishers is a big plus for them.

What I was hoping for comments on was; should the enforcing authority be allowed to sell extinguishers and FRA's?


Offline K Lard

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Re: Enforcer and salesmen
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 09:35:58 AM »
Can't make out whether this is through the actual Fire Service or a Community Interest Company? If it is through the Fire Service then  IMHO as the enforcing authority they should not be endorsing any particular product. If it is the CIC set up by the Fire Service then unfortunately anything goes (rightly or wrongly)!

Offline Golden

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Re: Enforcer and salesmen
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 09:55:58 AM »
Cardiff it wasn't a comment on the P50 but a comment on the article that made a business case for the fire service into providing the P50 that I don't think is a realistic comparison and would like to know where they get the data from. You are quite right that not many schools, if any, apart from the odd boiler room where a risk assessment may prove that a DP is necessary but that wasn't the point - the point I was making was that one supplier is making a business case comparing DP and even using a DP extinguisher that is not even available in the P50 version.

As for the rest of your post; the provision of CO2 is unnecessary in most situations that I find them and I often advise clients not to take this option so once again that cannot really be used as a comparison; CO2 is for protecting electrical risks where it is needed to penetrate into the inner workings to extinguish the fire or where the voltage is high and the P50 won't be able to replace them for this task. So we're looking at a provision of like for like extinguishers over say 21 years of a company this will require an initial purchase of a P50 (27A) at ?180 inc VAT and two refurbishments at ?288 = ?468 working out at ?18.72 P/A. If we're doing the comparison with a 9l foam (27A) at ?50 per extinguisher at ?50 installed plus the ?10 a year that you're quoting then that works out at 5 extinguishers (forget about 5/10 refilling etc just get new ones) at ?250 plus ?210 worth of servicing at your maximum price of ?10 and hey presto - its cheaper. This is a very simplistic example in order for you to understand and make a point however it far more complicated than the only worked example that I could find which appears to be specifically designed to fool people into thinking the P50 is way cheaper.

My point however is about costing - the fire service involved will not have costed out their support and it would be interesting to see their full analysis and any business case put together; who is delivering, commissioning and training the on site personnel or are they merely buying them from another seller who carries out all of these tasks and then taking a commission? If they are supplying all of these services are they including their insurances, support services, training etc in their own costs? The business model is simplistic and operates on a similar basis to private health care - let the NHS train up all of your staff then poach them when they are fully trained so you avoid many of the costs. To be fair it may give many of the older guys a job until they draw their pension at 84 years old. The FS are providing these through "commercial operation of the service?s new trading arm, Vital Fire Solutions (VFS) Ltd ? a sister company to its Community Interest Company" - its in the linked article.

Extra space is easy to find for most businesses - just tell them that BS 5306 is guidance only and that they don't have to comply but must comply with FSO (law) and get a risk assessment - take into consideration the actual risk and reduce the number of extinguishers by around half and write this on the risk assessment and they get loads of extra space and reduced maintenance costs. Simples.

Offline wee brian

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Re: Enforcer and salesmen
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 03:36:01 PM »
Marketing is marketing - does fairy really last longer than two cheapies - god only knows. Caveat emptor.

As for trading arms - there are rules. if they follow them then thats that.

Offline Jim Scott

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Re: Enforcer and salesmen
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2015, 04:42:35 PM »
How far does the trading arm go though?

Is it right that an enforcing authority should offer commercial services in direct conflict?  Of course I am thinking the number that offer FRAs.

Regardless of how it is badged up, I cannot see how the situation can be looked upon favourably, should it all go wrong.

Is it any different to a prosecuting advocate offering fire risk assessments?

The jury rests.....

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Enforcer and salesmen
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2015, 10:45:21 PM »
They can claim it's OK to compare the 6kg P50 Powder with a 'typical' 9 kilo Powder as it's 43A:183B fire rating (which should be used for determining requirements, not the mass as used to be done in the 70's & earlier) is the same as some of the various low %MAP economy 9 kilo Powders on sale.

As for fire service trading, it has the worry that they can never be wrong - even when they are (at least one fire service extinguisher department that touts it services to third parties doesn't correctly service) so their sales guidance and standards will be swallowed as 'it's the fire service' (regardless of what name they trade under)
Anthony Buck
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Offline wee brian

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Re: Enforcer and salesmen
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 09:15:40 AM »
"London Fire Brigade provided our housing officers with training which we presumed, erroneously, would meet the requirements. This has not been the case and that?s why we decided that we are going to have outside experts provide us with fire risk assessments for those complex blocks. We have identified that we want to go further than just the basic fire risk assessment and we will be carrying out intrusive inspections of those blocks."

http://www.ifsecglobal.com/southwark-concedes-pre-lakanal-house-risk-assessments-were-inadequate/


Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Enforcer and salesmen
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2015, 08:26:13 PM »
Reading the full story the training was just a single day! However they didn't title it fire risk assessment training, just fire risk awareness - so they could no doubt turn around and say it wasn't for the purposes of doing FRAs.

It just goes to show there is good and bad everywhere, regardless of the badge they trade behind.
Anthony Buck
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Offline Golden

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Re: Enforcer and salesmen
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2015, 08:44:00 PM »
They hastily withdrew the course following the incident - the course description was quite interesting as it did allude to a form of competence. The description is nowhere to be found these days!