Author Topic: Hotel Alarm Policy  (Read 20649 times)

Offline David Rooney

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2015, 10:57:21 AM »
Advised by a client today that his overnight policy (see below) is normal in the hotel industry.
One employee on site who will respond to the FAP and immediately silence the alarm.
He will place an emergency call to the fire service and then investigate the cause of the alarm.
There are in my opinion many scenarios with this approach that concern me.
Is he correct regarding the industry standard?


It concerns me too. Here goes-

You've silenced the alarm, not reset and called the fire service. Why?

Because first priority is always to shut the alarm up!

If you have silenced the alarm, you must think that there isn't a fire - You don't need the fire service.

No, I just wanted to shut the alarm up. I call the brigade because that's what I'm told to do to cover my BSide. Now I might go and have a look

If you call the fire service you must think there is a fire so you don't silence the alarm.

Ok got that

When you investigate after silencing the alarm, you find a fire how do you then sound the alarm?

I haven't been trained in how to re-sound the alarm. It's a crappy old panel!! If it were an addressable panel I could operate a call point  ;D


Generally speaking... in a non addressable system a call point in the same zone that is showing fire condition won't re-sound the alarm .... a call point operated in a different zone should.
CTA Fire - BAFE SP203 - F Gas Accredited - Wireless Fire Alarm System Specialists - Established 1985 - www.ctafire.co.uk
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Offline TickityBoo

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2015, 02:42:50 PM »
Hi

Just to be clear, are we saying that when the alarm is silenced, it will not re-sound unless a device in another zone operates (or the system re-sound button is pressed)?  That is my understanding anyway and I think it is a requirement of 5839-1 that an actuation in a new zone re-sounds the alarm.

But what about addressable systems - are they generally configured in the same way or are they all programmed to re-sound the alarm after silencing, if any device - including those in the same zone - sends a fire signal to the CIE?

Thanks  :)

Offline colin todd

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2015, 08:58:21 PM »
Can be programmed either way.  But as you are in Scotland, I would not worry to much as the SFRS attend all calls to AFAs.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline David Rooney

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2016, 02:25:56 PM »
Hi

Just to be clear, are we saying that when the alarm is silenced, it will not re-sound unless a device in another zone operates (or the system re-sound button is pressed)?  That is my understanding anyway and I think it is a requirement of 5839-1 that an actuation in a new zone re-sounds the alarm.

But what about addressable systems - are they generally configured in the same way or are they all programmed to re-sound the alarm after silencing, if any device - including those in the same zone - sends a fire signal to the CIE?

Thanks  :)

On a non addressable system generally yes, when the alarm is silenced, it will not re-sound unless a device in another zone operates (or the system re-sound button is pressed).

Addressable systems as Mr CT suggests, often have an option to allow alarms to resound either from a device in the same zone or from devices in other zones.
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Offline Daffodil

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2016, 09:43:17 AM »
In my experience words like industry standard or accepted practice translates to; the fire service have never challenged it.

I think most of us agree that an investigation period, in a purpose built hotel would be acceptable but there would need to be assurances that further activations of detector heads or after a reasonable time period the alarm will re sound.

Unfortunately I have come across this scenario with care homes employing progressive horizontal evacuation and only one member of staff on site over night. Every industry is running lean on staff in an effort to keep costs down, the implications are often not thought through.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2016, 01:01:31 PM »
And to make matters worse having silenced the alarm EN54-2 does not require the panel to give an audible alarm to remind staff it has been left in silence mode as the old 5839-4 used to require. Tried to raise this with several organisations  including the FIA but have been told everybody knows about this and it's not a problem. I disagree and it was a significant factor in the Oldfield Bank Altrincham Fire - the fire alarm engineer was prosecuted as the fault buzzer was found to be defective despite his recent service.

Offline Messy

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2016, 06:20:49 PM »
Thanks for that Kurnal

I am involved with a significant fire alarm renewal project and was not aware of the change in the guidance. I can't see how that is an improvement either and will revisit our proposals tomorrow. 

Offline kurnal

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2016, 08:40:10 AM »
Thanks Messy. I think this is more of an issue with conventional panels rather than addressable ones and may not affect all manufacturers products. I encountered it in a care home when following a breakdown a new CTec panel was installed in a hurry after the old panel failed. When demonstrating the new panel to staff during a fire drill I noticed that on pressing the silence button no buzzer sounded but the fire and zone LEDs just changed to a flashing mode rather than continuous. In this particular case the panel was poorly sited at the best of times in a small lobby off the main entrance,off the staffs normal route. Normal staff procedure at night is to silence the alarm to minimise disruption whilst the alarm is investigated, leaving a staff member at the panel in radio contact with the investigation team. However if they become distracted by wandering service users etc or leave the panel for any reason without a full reset - maybe to confirm there is no fire, there is an increased risk  the silence mode may be overlooked.

When I queried it with the alarm engineers they like me assumed the panel was faulty and referred it to the manufacturers who investigated and their technical  department seemed unaware and took several days of testing to confirm that this was not a fault but a design issue based on EN54. EN54 does not explicitly require an audible warning so the designers have not included one.

The technical officer at the FIA told me that this issue has been well discussed and everybody is aware of it, and no further action is necessary. My experience of manufacturers, engineers, some very senior and experienced consultants and care home staff proves the opposite. Even the manufacturers technical department  were not initially aware when it was reported to them as a fault so how can we hope this very significant change will be passed onto end users?

Whilst current guidance for care homes recommends addressable systems be installed, the likelihood is that an old faulty conventional panel will be replaced with the same to minimise downtime and disruption.

The issue needs to be raised throughout the industry so that engineers can brief end users of this significant change on replacement of panels where this is an issue. The FIA could help by surveying manufacturers to ascertain how many products are affected and updating their publicity and training courses accordingly. I could produce a short case history with photos if this would help.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 08:45:57 AM by kurnal »

Offline Fishy

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2016, 10:21:41 AM »
The fact that it surprised a good few of us would appear to indicate that it is an issue!  Would be interesting to know why a) CEN didn't think it was necessary and b) why if we thought it was necessary in the UK we didn't specify it in BS 5839-1, like we did for the LED zone indicators (which similarly aren't a requirement under EN54, so I understand).

Mr Todd's bound to know the history...

Offline colin todd

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2016, 07:50:21 PM »
What surprised us Fishcake????
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2016, 09:06:24 PM »
Fishy and I were referring to the  difference between EN54-2 and BS5839-4 in respect of the audible alarm when the panel is in silence mode. EN54-2 does not specify that the panel should emit an audible alarm in silence mode so newer panels designed only to EN54 may or may not provide this. You may remember we discussed this last year Colin and you did some research on it for me wth your pals in Europe.

Offline colin todd

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2016, 04:57:27 PM »
Yes, I remember all that, Big Al, but I wasnt sure if that was what fishcake was talking about.  You cant ask for it in BS 5839-1 because the product standard does not call it up so you will not get it.  You cant tell manufacturers how to design a product in an installation code.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Fishy

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2016, 09:41:31 AM »
Yes, I remember all that, Big Al, but I wasnt sure if that was what fishcake was talking about.  You cant ask for it in BS 5839-1 because the product standard does not call it up so you will not get it.  You cant tell manufacturers how to design a product in an installation code.

I confirm that it was the disappearance of the buzzer functionality that was the concern - seems such a useful thing to have that I was wondering why it was not considered as being necessary?  And am I also right in my recollection that the zone indicators are not in the BS EN 54 but are in BS 5839-1?

Offline colin todd

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Re: Hotel Alarm Policy
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2016, 08:26:40 PM »
Yes, but they can be added on in a separate panel.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates