Author Topic: Care Home Bathrooms  (Read 7352 times)

Offline stevew

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Care Home Bathrooms
« on: December 05, 2017, 07:58:56 PM »

The scenario.
Several bathrooms off a corridor fitted with a powered bath and a vent-axia.
The doors are not fr or fitted with a sc.
Why on earth would a fire officer during a recent audit recommend to my client to fit heat afd?

She also failed to explain either verbally or in her letter how the safety of the occupants would be improved by
the afd.
Unfortunately my client carried out the work a month before my audit visit.
My feeling at the moment is to suggest that my client sends the bill for the work to the fire authority.

Am I missing something here?

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: Care Home Bathrooms
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 08:42:00 PM »
There is a train of thought that an acrylic bath and a electrically powered hoist is a recipe for disaster. Followed closely by fires in extractor fans. 

The IO has bought into this and asked for heat detection, the IO has got the theory slightly wrong as the train of thought also says you should use smoke detection in the bathroom, the fitting of Thermostatic Mixing Valve (TMV) restricts the water temp to 40-41 degrees allowing SD without false alarms.

It is only a theory, as when I questioned an IO who told me about it 6/7 years ago I asked how many fires have been caused by electric hoists nationally he said none. Vents are a more common cause of fires.

I have seen it in a number of care homes since.

Offline stevew

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Re: Care Home Bathrooms
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 09:06:06 PM »
Hi Dave

I am interested in your train of thought using smoke detection.
I spoke to an Apollo engineer this morning who advised me that the use of smoke detection will be
unsuitable in such an environment.
So are you saying that if I can confirm that my client uses tmv, as you describe, then I can advise them to
change the heat to smoke.

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: Care Home Bathrooms
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 10:58:46 PM »

The question to the engineer is why is it unsuitable. Is it due to false alarms or does he have another reason?

At 40 degrees C there won't be steam to set off the detection. I was sceptical. Whenever I have come across this scenario (about a dozen times) I have always asked whether they suffer any false alarms, nobody has said yes. Whether it is really necessary is more debatable. The hoist will always be used by a carer, who will raise the alarm.

Whilst I have been an interested observer I am not particularly a fan, just sharing my experiences.

Offline William 29

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Re: Care Home Bathrooms
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 08:13:57 PM »
Welcome to the world of fire safety enforcement, sorry auditing.

Offline SeaBass

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Re: Care Home Bathrooms
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2017, 03:04:38 PM »
The production of air borne condensation, which will activate most smoke detectors, is largely dependent on the ambient air temperature, not just the temperature of the water. So the idea that a mixer tap will prevent false alarms doesn't hold water................ See what I did there?

Offline Fire Monkey

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Re: Care Home Bathrooms
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 03:37:18 PM »
Hi,

I few years back I shadowed a Enforcement Officer from a Fire Brigade whilst they were carrying out an audit of a large residential home for the elderly. They asked me what was the difference, in terms of fire risk or source of ignition, between a bedroom and a bathroom (both leading directly onto the means of escape corridor). Prior to this, at another but similar site, the LFB sent a letter (not enforcement) asking the landlord to consider the fire doors in terms of the FRA as this situation had not been specifically mentioned (and therefore considered).The doors to the bath rooms were nominal ones (no ISS/SS but solid with closers and 1" stops) and there were sprinklers both side of the door and an L1 system installed (no false alarms reported). The point they were trying to make was that now the risk of fire in the bathroom was the same (or there-abouts) as the risk from a bedroom and so the lack of a fully compliant fire door had to be considered in terms if a fire risk assessment. So if fire doors may be a requirement would not detection also be (especially if there were no sprinklers)? One thing to ask in the FRA is if the equipment such as hoists or electric baths are being serviced or not. Fire on such equipment may not occur whilst some one is operating it (indeed I have heard of fires for the power supply to electric beds catching fire and setting fire to the carpet - no one has to be in the bed for that to happen). So can you risk assess out the need for afd (smoke or heat) - well that's down to the assessor.

FM