Author Topic: Fire Training in Hospitals  (Read 42152 times)

Offline Jason Thomson

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Fire Training in Hospitals
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2005, 01:14:26 PM »
Hi,
I was at a conference recently and this subject was mentioned and my personal interpretation from the NHS Estate speaker was...... the new policy(when issued) will make provisions for additional training aids like Video and E learning on a risk assessment approach with times and occurences. However they can't be used as a stand alone training solution but are avaliable as a part solution of a Trust fire safety training package/policy.

Regards
Jason

Offline Hotstuff

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« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2005, 04:20:47 PM »
I have been reading this thread with interest as I am currently working on a Uni assignment around the adequacy of fire safety training generally. I like the idea of e-learning, but agree with some of the comments about it not replacing hands-on direct teaching and learning from experts.
Whilst one hour is surely not enough for some of the staff (I work in a small (ish) 300 staff - part of the NHS - a rehabilitation centre) - we have to drag staff kicking and screaming as it 'interrupts' their clinical workload and some perceive it as uneccessary!?
This worries me as at any one time we can have quite a few patients sitting in our waiting area legless literally whilst their limbs are being fixed in the workshops.... and I wonder whether an hour a year is enough to prepare us for if we had to evacuate en masse?
Is there any evidence out there regading the effectiveness of this training?

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2005, 07:26:08 PM »
One might argue that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. There have been very few deaths from fire in general acute hospitals since free health care was introduced, and yet look at the potential problems. People who are very difficult to move in the event of fire, low staff numbers in some patient care areas, operations in progress and, historically at least, building stock that left a lot to be desired even though the use of small sub-compartments does form an important and valuable part of the fire strategy. So something must be done well, and I have always felt it was the staff reaction, based on the level of training they receive, which is a lot more than in other sectors. As part of your research, you might like to look at the %age of fires that spread beyond the item and also the room of origin. While that has got a lot to do with the level of AFD and the level of compartmentation, it must be an indirect reflection on staff response (or so I have always believed). Many years ago, I did an exercise to look at these %ages for hospitals, hotels, dwellings and (I think) some other occupancies, and I was impressed by the very low %age of fires that spread beyond the item of origin and the room of origin. It convinced me that the NHS is poor at patient medical care but really good on fire safety.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline dave bev

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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2005, 10:02:56 AM »
mr todd, i would dispute your point with reference to the nhs not providing a good level (poor - in your words?) of patient care. are you making a specific reference to the organisation or the staff?

dave bev

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2005, 02:05:56 PM »
Davey, An organization is a collection of staff, so one cannot divorce the two. Last time, I was in an NHS Hospital (pending a private ambulance coming to collect me after a few days to go to the first available bed in the local private hospital), the sister dropped in to ask if I was taking my temperature regularly. Bearing in mind that I was there as a result of a fever, I thought that this was possibly the job of nursing staff, but evidently I was wrong.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

messy

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« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2005, 04:24:58 PM »
Colin: I know of at least one LFB IO who would willingly assist in taking your temperature (as long as he chose the method, orifice and size of thermometer!!!)

Makes my eyes water to think of it!

Hope you are now keeping well. Me? I've joined the chosen few and am now off the station (away from those dangerous fires and afd calls) and keeping you consultants on your toes. I am looking forward to checking one of your FRAs, as I understand they are often problematical.

It's not true what you have said about a certain Met FB, I've met several competent IOs so far - well at least 3!!

Chris Houston

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« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2005, 04:58:58 PM »
Quote from: messy
Colin: I know of at least one LFB IO who would willingly assist in taking your temperature (as long as he chose the method, orifice and size of thermometer!!!)

Makes my eyes water to think of it!

Hope you are now keeping well. Me? I've joined the chosen few and am now off the station (away from those dangerous fires and afd calls) and keeping you consultants on your toes. I am looking forward to checking one of your FRAs, as I understand they are often problematical.

It's not true what you have said about a certain Met FB, I've met several competent IOs so far - well at least 3!!

How many fire safety risk assessments do FRS check each year?  Roughly?  (dozens/hundreds/thousands/millions)

Most organisations still don't seem to have them.

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2005, 06:38:53 PM »
Messy, Give me a clue? Which particular I/O would that be. Give us a clue! Glad you have chosen the easy life of fire safety. No future in this firefighting business, unless Davey stops them from closing stations.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline dave bev

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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2005, 08:09:58 PM »
i would say i was trying colin, although a few probably think (or know!) that already!

dave bev

messy

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« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2005, 08:37:46 PM »
Colin: I have a plan. After a spell enjoying the 'easy life', I'll retire and intend to be the 1st ex certain-met-FB officer to be employed by CST.

I enjoy a challenge!!!!

Offline colin todd

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« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2005, 12:30:14 AM »
No, you would be the 2nd. There will not be a third. But best of luck with the new role anyway. And remember your pals here will always be happy to help you.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Hotstuff

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Fire Training in Hospitals
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2005, 07:27:00 PM »
Just to say a big thanks to those who responded to my request for help on my assignment - I passed with 84%. I am happy for anyone to see it - good old Saint Florian - that's all I can say. I think you all have the patience of saints trying to unravel the mysteries of the Firecode and NHS Estates and Health & Safety 'guidance'. Thought I'd let you see the conclusion anyway - hopefully the bulk of the assignment hasn't got anything as controversial as "Messy" posts on the site :-D Thanks again everyone - especially Colin Todd.
Hotstuff aka Kim


CONCLUSION
Whilst it is opportune that the new Regulatory Reform Order (ODPM, 2004) and the Firecode Policy ‘HTM 05 – Fire Safety in the NHS’ (NAHFO, 2005) are being published, it is problematic in that it coincides with a torrent of welcomed recent guidance published from the DH and NHS Estates concerning safety and standards.

Whilst the transformation and modernisation is necessary for both the Fire Service and the NHS, it generates much confusion amongst those professionals in both Services whose passion to “do the right thing” is what has fuelled the oft heated dialogue on the ‘Firenet Discussion Forum’ but has provided some constructive exchange of ideas.

There appears to be scant evidence to suggest that the current standard of fire training is ‘inadequate’, and indeed this may be difficult to determine whether the standard of training was solely ‘to blame’ following an incident? Indeed, if we are to apply the lessons learned from the DH’s 2000 OWAM report on ensuring that there is a blame free assessment, the report states that:

“Rather there is a complex interaction between a varied set of elements,
including human behaviour, technological aspects of the system,
sociocultural factors and a range of organisational and procedural
weaknesses.”

In conclusion, the author believes that the superfluity of NHS
and Fire Service guidance, policy and legislation around fire safety requires the wisdom and ‘patience of a Saint’ to explore, and distinguish relevant and consistent information.

Offline Brian Catton

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« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2005, 03:47:38 PM »
All that is required from the Director of Policy is a letter mandating Trusts to carry out their training according to a training needs analysis and to keep suitable and sufficient records. Will the powers that be do this oh no, that would be too simple. I recently sent a letter to a senior person in DOH requesting that this was done. (I will not name him because I know he does some excellent work and is at times also frustrated.

Offline lingmoor

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Re: Fire Training in Hospitals
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2012, 03:27:20 PM »
This thread was started nearly nine years ago!!...so it's about time it was resurrected :)

HTM 05.03 (General Fire Safety) says that e-learning is not acceptable as a sole means of training staff. E-learning can only be used to support training delivered by a competent fire safety advisor

In extreme circumstances, where a member of staff cannot be made available -due for example to long term sickness- the use of e-learning may be used as a temporary alternative (Im not sure why they would need any fire training if they are off sick!) However no member of staff should go without training by a fire safety advisor for longer than 2 years. Therefore staff should not receive refresher training via e-learning more than once in a two year period.

Clarification on this was sought from the Department of Health.

A letter sent out to a number of relevant parties says

organisations will not be in breach of any statutory duty under the RRO if the following approach is taken

Training should not be reliant solely on e-learning but should include face to face training by a competent person

Staff in direct patient care will require training from a competent person

Then it gives a table showing examples

Direct patient care........competent person annually ....e-learning as an additional option

No patient contact .......e-learning annual...........competent person every 2 years as additional option

sounds a bit messed up to me