Extraction Fans

[GB]

i have a client who is building a music venue that has a stage area. The area is approx 13m x 5m x 6m high. It has a 2 hour fire curtain with smoke seals that is linked to the AFD that is increased to cover the stage and adjoining areas. The sound system is integral in order to minimise ignition sources on stage and a natural vent in located within a nearby staircase.

I hae done some modelling to demonstrate an acceptabel ASET therefore occupant evacuation is not a concern. I have assumed that for smoke extraction, the fire service can use their PPV and the natural vent in the staircase adjoining the staircase. I am of the opinion that the building does not require Mechanical extraction, the LAFB want it in for fire-fighting. The client wants to avoid it due to trying to achieve satisfactory sound isulation

I am operating under the new functional standards in Scotland where I am sure I don't require it. What are your thoughts?.

[messy]

I take it you have checked to ensure that the local FRS use PPV fans (as many don't)

[kurnal]

As a sassenach (hope the spelling is something like) I dont claim to be familiar with the new functional standards in Scotland. But I am a little mystified from the information provided as to the reason justifying the mechanical smoke extraction. Is it an engineering solution in compensation for deviations from the code? or a basement venue? For life safety or to facilitate firefighting?
If it is required as part of an engineered solution then it is not acceptable to rely on the fire service resources. What is the Building Authorities view on the need for it?

[GB]

The building does not require an engineered solution. There are 2 seperate final exits, 1 less than 2m from the end of the stage, the other 7m from the other end of the stage. The ignition risks have been reduced by hard wiring the sound system, the only control box is within a metal box and there have been no historical instances of these boxes catching fire.

The premise is ground floor, the final exits are ground floor.

The fire service want it to remove the smoke and fight the fire. They don't carry PPV fans. (we may be cheaper buying them for them and perhaps that will solve the problem!!)

i could understand if they wanted this in the audiotorium where people may be, but in the stage area?.

This is a compartment with 80m2 floor area. I can think of 101 other premises with larger floor areas, with more igntion sources, less licensing laws, higher fuel loads and still no mechanical extraction.

I am of the opinion that even though the fire service want it we don't need to provide it as it is not required under the guidance within the functional standard.

Thoughts?

[kurnal]

GB
From the information you have given I agree that it appears that the extraction requested is completely over the top.
Has the request come through the building consultation procedure - facilities and access for firefighting or is it goodwill advice by the brigade?
If the building is still under construction you need to involve the building inspector. A meeting between the three parties should resolve it. You can expect the building inspector to determine the matter and if necessary you could appeal under building Act procedures. Even if the local inspector bows to pressure from the FSO you can bet his boss will not when they realise you intend to appeal.

Under current legislation that should be the end of the matter as the workplace regs do not cover facilities for firefighters. T
he new order does however (but only maintenance of facilities that have already been provided), and so  looking towards October if the building is complete I would  present your risk assessment and calcs,  measure the building against the benchmark codes and guidance, the significant findings  would indicate satisfactory performance without additional facilities for firefighting. The FSO has the option of accepting it or issueing an enforcement notice, to which you can appeal.  
I bet they will not prepared to use enforcement  procedures.
If you still are getting nowhere ask to see the senior FSO from the brigade. Its probably a rookie FSO with his own agenda.

[Tom Sutton]

GB Yes challenge the FRA if you think you have a good case. All parties will benefit, you will achieve your aims and it will be a valuable lesson to the FRS. It’s a pity more people do not because fire safety departments would improve.

[jayjay]

Is this a theatre style premises? You say it has a fire curtain is this a solid safety curtain or some sort of flexible screen ?.  The FRA may be using the guidance in BS 5588-6 Code of Practice for places of assembly which does recommend stage fire ventilation. This is by means of a "Haystack Lantern Light" which opens in the event of a fire on the stage. It is also recommended in the "Guide to Fire Precautions in existing Places of Entertainment etc. If your stage will not  have stage productions i.e with scenery then it may be  unreasonable to require smoke ventilation.

These two documents are quite detailed in the recommendations for entertainment premises and are woth looking at.

[GB]

Thanks Jay Jay

It is a music venue without theatre style fixed seating, more tables and chairs. There will be no stage productions, the only 2 stage tapestries are fire retardent materials therefore again not the old canvas style stage scenery of yesteryear.

I will look at these docs again with a new eye (and the old one still hopefully unless some FRA sticks their finger in it !!!)

[GB]

I have looked at 5588 but it really is concerned with stage areas that provide a theatre style stage provision of moveable sets and fixed seating.

What I am looking for is guidance for a non-theatre stage which doesn't need smoke extraction and really doesn't need a 2 hour fire curtain as the fire loading is so small there is no need to protect occupants that are over 5m away from the front of the stage that any radiated heat will not affect their escape. Where can I find a common sense document that even though I have proved the Required Safe Egress Time is satisfactory that the authority can look at and take comfort from guidance or a CoP. Can anyone help!!

[jokar]

GB,

Have you loooked at the LDSA standards for licensing.  The technical standards, coloured yellow, are a replacement for the old yellow guide and the green version is a useful document as well.  If you haven't got copies or access to them I may be able to assist.

[afterburner]

GB have the F&RS detailed why they are wanting the smoke extraction? Also whether this is based on current legislation or the anticpated Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations in October? This requirement for mechanical smoke extraction is onerous and goes someway beyond the smoke ventilation requirements normally set for stage areas. Have the FR&S given any justification for this?
As for your comment about buying them the PPV kit, well yes it will be cheaper but they won't guarantee that the kit you buy will be aboard the appliance respoding to your premises, which gets you back to square one!