Beds, beds, beds!

[Chris Houston]

At risk of this going  round in circles.......

I read that the reasons fire fighter sleep is because there is nothing to do.

I note the confusion that employers have about fire risk assessments.

Why not train fire fighters to correspond with employers about this matter.  It could be done by post or email, at night.

[messy]

If these chaps were allowed to be resting, does it really matter what bl00dy angle they were sleeping at?? Flat on the floor or balanced at 45 degrees on a chair, so what?

An analogy would be for an office worker to be disciplined, as (during a surprise visit by the area manager) they were found to be using their own pen rather than the company biro.

Let's just hope these FF's weren't dreaming sexist dreams on duty or they'll be facing another charge!

[Kaiser]

At risk of this going  round in circles.......

I read that the reasons fire fighter sleep is because there is nothing to do.

I note the confusion that employers have about fire risk assessments.

Why not train fire fighters to correspond with employers about this matter.  It could be done by post or email, at night.

hmmm, interesting point but you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.  Despite government and senior management propaganda, firefighters have constantly complied with the modernisation programme.  When individuals have had problems with things and raised their views, they are often subjected to indirect discrimination.  The emails and letters either don't get replied to or the usual propaganda comes back saying everything is great.  Our station managers are so interested in their own careers that that they will agree to anything as long as it has little effect on their own life.  Personally I dispair at some of the things that are happening in my own brigade, I have written to my CFO and the chair of the fire authority who both decided to not bother answering my letters and emails.

In my previous brigade, I stood up and spoke out at a public meeting to explain why I was bothered that the fire authority wanted to close two of the busiest staions in the county and replace them with a single pump station half way between them. The first station WAS the busiest single pump station in the county and the other one had suffered the highest rate of fire deaths in the county for the previous 5 years running. At the time I was a temporary LFf, the day after I was back down to firefighter.

Nice communication is often ignored, if you communicate loudly, in public, or place the Chief of the FRA Chair in an awkward position where it is proven that they are telling lies to the community, your career prospects are over.

There may be some brigades where this isn't the case but the majority are like this these days. Keep your sarcastic remarks to yourself or get your head from up your behind and find out what is really happening

[pugh]

Oh dear.  The beds issue has raised its ugly head again, this time in GMC.  Apparently, sleeping bags and comfy pillows have not been risk assessed and three firefighters have been carpeted for use of unauthorised equipment.  A GMC spokesperson said that, "Although firefighters are allowed to rest for three hours per nightshift, if they should fall asleep then a 'common sense' approach would be taken."  What utter humbug!

A 'common sense' approach would have been to leave well alone and allow the nightshift firefighters to 'sleep' (doze fitfully) as this issue has absolutely ZERO impact on operational readiness and has more to do with modern fire service mismanagement.

GRRRRRRR! :mad:

[Rich]

As the original poster I can happily say (touching wood) that we still have our beds 12 months on even following consultation (which in my brigade is generally a one way street!!).  We trialled a chair on each w/t station (same style as GMFS) and we all hated it for the use it was intended.  If it were to be implemented it was for rest only - absolutely no sleeping in them whatsoever.

The issue of beds seems to be a tricky one and I am pleased my brigade has not gone down that road yet..............but I'm sure the clock is ticking!!

[Chris Houston]

...you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.....

Thanks, Kaiser, for your feedback.

I am sure you know much more about this matter than me, so it would be great to hear why you think my suggestion is so poor and any further comments you have to help me understand better why you think that I "have no idea".

[Kaiser]

...you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.....

Thanks, Kaiser, for your feedback.

I am sure you know much more about this matter than me, so it would be great to hear why you think my suggestion is so poor and any further comments you have to help me understand better why you think that I "have no idea".

Well Chris,
Your message implies that firefighters don't make any effort to contact their employers regarding matters bothering them, it also implies that they need training on how to write or email their employers.  This is simply not true, if you read my initial reply to your previous comments you would understand why I feel slightly bitter about this subject.  
I am not some kind of mad unionist, neither am I a management puppet, I accept that both sides of the table often have good cause for raising issues with each other and that they also have their reasons for rejecting each other's ideas and the subject of beds on station and firefighters sleeping is only one of many issues.  

The issue of the loss of beds is one which I have a great understanding of and I have seen the consequences of first hand, so much so that I undertook further investigation on the effects of sleep deprivation on firefighters in liaison with Dr Louise Reynor of the National Sleep Research Centre at Loughborough University.  I explained the effects that our shift change was having on crews, the differences in their abilities on second and third night shifts (my brigade works 3 nights in a row on 12 hour nights without sleep) and her comments and fears shocked me.  I wrote a six page letter to my Chief Fire Officer and the Chair of our fire authority explaining fully Dr Reynor's concerns and findings about the safety of crews working our shift system and the effects of lack of sleep and I received a great big NOTHING in return, not a comment, not a thank you not a sausage.

It seemed apparent in your previous comments that your image of firefighters is one of blokes who want to do nothing all night and just get paid for sleeping, this is not the case.  Our early evening is spent doing our initial equipment safety checks, after a short gathering to read out brigade orders, critical information etc. we move out to complete home safety risk assessments in our communities. Once we return from doing home safety risk assessments, we have a short tea break and then we complete either our standard tests on equipment or a practical drill session.  This is then followed by some sort of theoretical training and an evening meal.  I personally as a junior officer with 2 probationary firefighters on my watch, have to then spend a lot of time with my probationers in order to assist them with completion of their NVQ's.  

You asked me to explain myself and I think I have done so. I would appreciate it if you would now explain your comments>

[pugh]

For all the non-fire service people out there, I can understand that you find the fact that firefighters are allowed to sleep during their nightshifts to be contrary to the idea of being at work.  Having read through all the comments I don't intend to rehash, just to emphasise that the only truly useful work to be done by firefighters after dark-o-clock is firefighting.

Where else are you, as a council-tax payer, going to get a 24/7 service, guaranteed to be at your door within a set period of time (depending on location, obviously), 365 days per year for around 45 quid per year (average cost per household).  It is actually costing more to invent all the nonsense tasks and to employ these performance auditors to sneak around than it is to leave this alone.  I know I'm biased but, with the high levels of risk faced by firefighters these days, managers (for want of a better term) are really kicking the shine off what was once the absolute best job in the world.

[Chris Houston]

Kaiser,

I said:
       
"I note the confusion that employers [i.e. shop/office/factory responsible persons throughout the UK] have about fire risk assessments.

Why not train fire fighters to correspond with employers about this matter.  It could be done by post or email, at night."

Having read over your comments many time, I think you have misunderstood me and wonder if you think I meant:

"I note the confusion that employers have about fire risk assessments.

Why not train fire fighters to correspond with their employersabout this matter.  It could be done by post or email, at night." Which might explain why you responded like you did.   So before we argue any further about this, is it possible that you might have misunderstood my post?

[eric's collar]

since gmc moved from beds to chairs, all the problems started with the modernisation agenda. nobody uses the chairs, everybody gets their heads down on the floor, everybody. it has been a terrible mistake, if any other brigades are contemplating going down this line then they should expect the same situation that is happening in gmc. industrial action is looming, firefighters just do not give a hoot about the job anymore and do not care what the public think now. i do not know anybody who would recommend the job now to a friend. watch managers have so much pressure upon them by the prt and middle managers, people who try to throw their bars in are threatened with the new firefighter contract and pension!there is no, absolutely no moral left in the job.now that we work shifts of 78 hours and no day free of duty for 13 days people are just dead on their feet (especially if you are made to use the chairs). it is so sad, the situation in gmc is shocking, i feel as though i have wasted some of the best years of my life on a job where i am pension stuck.

[kurnal]

Sounds a lousy shift system- how does that work? And did you guys have a vote on it?

[eric's collar]

we work a 5 watch rota. we start a run of 7 tours on a monday doing the conventional 2 days 2 nights, 48 hour shift. we work this until the sunday is our first day on, we then finish on the thursday morning and get 18 days off, sound good? check this, if you apply for a p.h. in excess of 72 hours in advance you are guaranteed the day off!!still sound good, well that was the management spiel in selling the system, oh and by the way, we were getting the system anyway no matter what we said or thought. the reason? cuts of course, reducing the manning on each watch in alot of cases from 16 to 11 on 2 pump and special stations. now because they were potentially giving us longer leave, they wanted those hours back at their discretion. so the situation is this, 2 days 2 nights, rest of 5th day off, back in following day on either 2 days or 2 nights, if its 2 nights, then you get the rest of that 3rd day off back in the following day on normal shift rota, hence the no day off / clear of duty for 13 days and 78 hour shifts.we get these shifts in every run of 7, sometimes more than once. all this on a chair that is not for sleeping on, only resting on. no sleeping bags or duvets etc, you are given two flight blankets ( like on aeroplanes ) and you get 1 pillow between 5 of you, you have to indent for your own pillow case! the public holiday scenario due to manning levels is rediculous, you just get used to not getting them and getting stand ins. the trouble is you can't take p.h's during the year and you can't carry them over to the next year because the system won't allow it. these are family friendly working hours so we are told,

[pugh]

I'm sorry but management have the right to manage - not to screw up a perfectly good, family-freindly watch sysstem for the sake of saving a few quid.  Look at the hidden cost.  The reduction in manning levels means fewer people to do a dangerous job, potentially leading to injury/fatality at an incident.  What will the cost be for that?

Exhausted firefighters working this unbelievable shift system (that I still cannot get my head around) with the reduction in their ability to carry out their duties to the level that the public demand, and deserve!  Which again has the potential to lead to injury/fatality at an incident.  What if it's the appliance driver, exhausted, involved in a fatal collision en-route to an incident? Will the FA step up to the plate and take responsibility?  NOT A CHANCE!

Vote with your feet.  Organise your own shifts back to where they were as this system is a disaster.  What can the FA do - suspend you all, dismiss you?  I know the public of Manchester have the greatest respect for the firefighters and they will back you when they know the full story.

Just a silly question but who is it that allows these morons off the Fire Service College campus and puts them into an office?

[eric's collar]

it beggars belief that cheshire are going down this line of rest facilities when the simmer in gmc has gone past boiling. resist this change with all your might, our 41 wholetime stations are ready for the fight, as is everyone else. the rest issue and the lads caught on the floor was the final straw, corporate bullying is rife in gmc, discipline cases have gone through the roof and the bmt think moral is ok(gauged only on sickness levels and leavers). it is a similar situation to 'yes minister', subordinates to the ceo pulling the strings, running the job, telling the boss everything is fine,there are no worries, they are happy, just a few teething problems, the small minority, resistance to change blah blah. they have lost touch with us, the ops ff's, but that is what the big wigs want and that is the reason why they are in charge, pure politics, nothing to do with the histrionics of a once proud job and workforce

[pugh]

Right now, I am having to control my blood pressure as it is ROCKETING!  What has happened over the last couple of years is the FBU, and that means you, the members, have thrown away 9-weeks of my life.  Just tossed it down the gurgler.

We were on strike for 9-weeks in 1977 and struggled for the conditions that are now being eroded.  The shift patterns pre-2-2-4 were appalling and you are heading straight back into them.  It is entirely due to the sacrifice of all of us who were on strike in 1977 that the manning levels, currently under attack by mis-managers, were achieved by the change to 2-2-4.

The beds are only a symptom of the bullying, hectoring management style that is today's fire service.  It isn't even being done through stealth any more as so-called managers are only concerned with PC and achieving targets set by politico's in high office.  They count the things that don't count and don't count the things that do.  Morale and pride in the job being two of the things that aren't counted.

It's barefaced bullying and the only language bullies understand is fighting back and not being afraid.  Sometimes, being militant is all you have - use it.

STAND SOLIDLY TOGETHER AND YOU CAN CHANGE THINGS.

(I've just read through this and realise that, in terms of today's fire service, I am an old dynosaur, an anchronism.  Just glad I retired when I did as it makes me weep to think of how the job is being ruined now.)