FSO guides

[zimmy]

It is not the Govt.s intention that FRS should be very involved in HMOs. The Housing Act is the most appropriate legislation.(page 2)

Furthermore I could see the FRS being criticised for failing to adopt a suitable risk based inspection programme!
(page 3)
.

PhilB

Can't have it both ways.

I would agree that FRS should be setting up protocols with their local Housing Authorities on inspection and enforcement, but only because there is no direction from the government. We will therefore end up with inconsistent inspection and enforcement across the country. Whilst I agree with both statements above the simple answer would be to end this speculation and interpretation by the issue of a circular directing the issue one way or the other.....CFOA,DCLG...anybody out there?

[PhilB]

I totally agree Zimmy, some guidance would be nice. I don't want it both ways.....I want a circular to tell us what to do. Perhaps Andy Jack could come out of hiding and speak to us.

Fred I also agree that the Housing Act is the appropriate legislation, however the new fire safety order will also apply and surely the FRS would be expected to act if an offence under that legislation has been committed.

I'm just playing devils advocate here......Consider this.............a FRS has decided not to inspect HMOs because they feel the Housing Act is the correct tool....there is a fire death that is caused by the failure of the responsible person. Could the FRS be failing to comply wih the duty to enforce the order?

Under the FPA the FRS had many dutys, to inspect, to serve notices to inform applicants about interim duties etc.  etc. The RRFSO imoses only one duty on FRS...TO ENFORCE THE ORDER.

[fred]

Perhaps it will all be made clear in the long awaited Guidance to Enforcing Authorities ... though there does seem to be a deafening silence from DCLG and CFOA on this ... but the latter do seem to be more interested in fitting sprinklers in schools for life safety ...... ooops - pardon my french!

[wee brian]

CFOA are always very keen on spending other peoples money.

[wee brian]

I drove past a police car last night 2mph over the limit. They didnt stop me (end of shift?) could they be held responsible if I crashed. No of course not.

The duty to enforce the order doesn't mean watching over everybody's shoulder all the time, there aren't that many Fire Safety Officers.

The link between the fire safety order and the housing act is clearly a problem. We can only wait with baited breath for guidance from on high.

[PhilB]

I take your point Wee Brian. But to use your example , if you did crash...and upon investigation it was discovered that your police force had not stopped anyone for speeding in the past 12 months.....they had relied on other legislation and another enforcing authority to control speeding.....might they not be found to be failing in their duty?

[wee brian]

No I dont think they would - so long as they could show that they had made the policy on the basis that others were dealing with the issue so it was not in the public interest.

In the end, only a court could decide and they never make any sense.

[fred]

I'm just playing devils advocate here......Consider this.............a FRS has decided not to inspect HMOs because they feel the Housing Act is the correct tool....there is a fire death that is caused by the failure of the responsible person. Could the FRS be failing to comply wih the duty to enforce the order?

Under the FPA the FRS had many dutys, to inspect, to serve notices to inform applicants about interim duties etc.  etc. The RRFSO imoses only one duty on FRS...TO ENFORCE THE ORDER.

That's a bit like blaming the HSE because Environmental Health didn't prosecute over a Food Hygiene contravention - I'm sure the Local Authorities also have a duty to enforce the Housing Act ....

[PhilB]

That's a bit like blaming the HSE because Environmental Health didn't prosecute over a Food Hygiene contravention - I'm sure the Local Authorities also have a duty to enforce the Housing Act ....

No it's not Fred......the EHO is the enforcing authority for HASAWA in the type of premises you refer to not HSE. However if someone was killed as a result of EHOs failure to enforce the HASAWA I expect the HSE would have something to say.

Can FRS neglect to enforce the order and rely on housing officers to do so under the Housing Act?

[black arts]

As we have appeared to be talking HMO's, my own Brigade believe
that after 5 minutes intensive training they can send the operational
crews to inspect these premises.
We have a habit of making these fo pars, years ago our esteemed
leaders thought up the idea of a lapsed fire certificate, that idea
crashed and burned five years later.
That was followed by humbled appologies to every office, shop, and
factory we had told lies to

[kurnal]

Habits that go back a long way. We had exactly the same following the cunningham report in the early 70s when overnight the focus switched to crews inspecting every corner shop, bandstand and bus shelter. My diary shows that in 1974 we were out doing the 28s (small shop/ office inspections) and 29s ( bit bigger shops) every shift and I recorded that we did not go on drill at all between June and September that year. The next years HMI showed we had all forgotten how to pitch ladders and tie knots so the pendulum swung the other way.
At least this time you will be working to a risk based program- or may be like us in the 70s you will start the troops on the little ones for practice....