Author Topic: FR vs AFD  (Read 18101 times)

Offline Pip

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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2006, 05:14:24 PM »
I think the 'heat detector in bedroom' argument may now out of date-as the new FSO talks about safety of relevant persons etc-so we cannot discount their safety ie sacrifice them.
Also is AFD (smoke) better than F.R.-as suggested as an alternative for dead ends(except sleeping of course).Better to have early warning than for it to burn through an f.r. door and find out too late.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2006, 06:25:33 PM »
The detector in the bedroom is not there for the safety of the person in the room. It is there to provide warning for othersbefore the corridor is compromised.

Offline Pip

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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2006, 09:23:21 AM »
exactly my point-as a relevent person their safety cannot be ignored,therefore heat detection not enough,and should be changed to a smoke detector.

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2006, 09:48:31 AM »
Whoa there.

Dont forget the magic word "reasonable". you cant go sticking a smoke detector in every place that a relevant person happens to be standing.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2006, 10:01:11 AM »
Oh no..I agree with Wee Brian. Pip do you have a detector in your bedroom, probably not. The person in the room should be aware of the problem.

Also consider the problems of unwanted fire signals in hotel bedrooms.

Offline Pip

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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2006, 11:39:11 AM »
actually, yes I do (optical and ionisation where appropriate, and in my childrens bedrooms, and every other room including loft  except my kitchen and toilets, and CO detectors in my hallway, and I shut every downstairs door at night,and we have an escape plan-it may not be perfect,, but it is better than average!. Whilst acknowledging the original argument for putting H.D. in hotel bedrooms, the question I am asking is would this now be accetable under the F.S.O?I don't think that we can accept that we can say to the individuals sleeping in a H.D. protected room 'sorry mate, the detector is there for everyone elses benefit, not yours'.So how is each individual going to be protected from a fire in their own room?Is it 'reasonable' to stiill accept the sacrifice of that person?
My local Fire Authorities policy is to recommend the provision of smoke detectors in all hotel bedrooms, at the same time making the occupier aware of the higher incident of false alarms that may occur because of the installation of this type of detector. To obviate excessive false alarms it will be necessary to incorporate a device in the alarm system to achieve a 90 second delay between the automatic system operating and a general alarm being raised. Operation of a manual call point or smoke detector, other than those in bedrooms, must still cause an instantaneous general alarm. Once a detector has operated it must be acknowledged at the control panel within 10 seconds or the system will override the 90 second delay and go to general alarm. This is to ensure that the reception is continuously manned.
The 90 second delay should, in general, give sufficient time for the alarm to be investigated. If the alarm is not reset within 90 seconds then the system should initiate a full general alarm. There may be a need to extend the 90 seconds delay but this must not go beyond 3 minutes without the approval of the Divisional Fire Safety Management.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2006, 11:51:24 AM »
Well Pip I'm afraid the fact is that there is not really a problem for the person in the room so why spend a lot of money that could be best used elsewhere.

Your house is very safe, but we cannot  and should not impose that standard on everyone regardless of the risk or cost involved.

Reasonable in the circumstances of the case, risk appropriate....not new terms but terms some have trouble understanding.

Offline Pip

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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2006, 12:04:06 PM »
I don't understand why you say it is not a problem for the person in the bedroom-if they are not alerted soon enough-and H.D. I would suggest is not going to in most cases,they are lost.Fire services across the country are currently fitting S.D. in domestic house's bedrooms-to give warning to the occupants of the room and others within their house.
I am just suggesting that the use of H.D. in sleeping accommodation, with the reasoning behind it, would not satisfy the F.S.O.

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2006, 01:33:48 PM »
pIp.

common practice in Hotels these days is to stick smoke detectors in the bedrooms except for the ones where smoking is allowed where HDs are provided.

Not sure how the smoking ban will affect this.

The fact that some Fire Services are doing something does not necessarily mean that its a good idea.

It still comes down to what is reasonable. In many cases the occupant of the room on fire will know about the fire. It gets kind of hot and smokey. Clearly if they are in a deep (beer induced) sleep then they may not wake soon enough. I dont think it is reasonable to apply the Order in the way you suggest.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2006, 02:03:29 PM »
Quote from: Pip
I don't understand why you say it is not a problem for the person in the bedroom-if they are not alerted soon enough-and H.D. I would suggest is not going to in most cases,they are lost.Fire services across the country are currently fitting S.D. in domestic house's bedrooms-to give warning to the occupants of the room and others within their house.
I am just suggesting that the use of H.D. in sleeping accommodation, with the reasoning behind it, would not satisfy the F.S.O.
Pip can you tell me when was the last fire death involving a guest asleep in an hotel when the fire started in the room of origin?

 I think you'll find if you research the matter that there isn't really a problem.

HMOs, different problem..........and in those cases I think we should be looking at diifferent solutions e.g. sprinklers.

The FSO requires the responsible person to take such general fire precautions as are reasonably required in the circumstances of the case.

Offline Pip

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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2006, 03:25:28 PM »
Well,if number (or rather lack of ) of deaths in Hotels suggest that is the case, then I can understand your reasoning.The risk is low,even if the hazard may not be, and therefore may comply under the 'reasonable and practable'.
Can I ask why this concept was not then applied to non sleeping risks?Surely if people were to be awake in these H.D. protected rooms eg offices, then the same criteria would apply, along with reducing unwanted AFA's.
If as mentioned by Wee Brian it is common in most hotels to put in S.D. ( and of course it is in my area-and unfortunately I dont get to stay in hotels very often outside my patch to know any different) then why?if H.D. is 'recommended'. I can understand the argument that, as lives lost in H.D. protected hotel rooms is neglible,and therefore accept that the balance of cost of replacing with S.D. would not be reasonable and practable, is it still not better to recommend S.D in new builds/conversions/rebuilds etc where the False alarms can be managed?

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2006, 04:34:33 PM »
Most - non sleeping risk do not need any fire detection at all. Lots of them have it but thats just because people don't know what they are doing.

Offline Pip

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« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2006, 04:44:06 PM »
yes I know,usually put in as bog standard for life/property protection to cover all bases whether needed or not, but what about inner rooms, or as shown in the new guides,instead of F.R. in dead ends?

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2006, 04:45:42 PM »
This cannot go on...I agree with Wee Brian again!!!! People are the best detectors so most offices would not normally require AFD.

Pip I would agree that in a new build hotel afd should incorporate smoke detection in rooms with suitable management. The problem of false alarms can be overcome with modern alarm systems.

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2006, 10:28:10 PM »
Blimey - at this rate we'll be exchanging xmas cards!