Local Fire Officer's advice on RRO

[crmd259]

Is that not the whole ethos behind Fire Safety Reform? Culture change?

How are we any different to traffic wardens? They enforce parking regulations cos thats what they are paid to do! What are we as Fire inspectors paid to do?

Ok, you may want to mention 'goodwill advice' again, but ive been there already and 'the customer' has made it clear what they think of that re: tescos (yes jokar....converted!!).

I think, like it or not we need to change and evolve with the reform.

Pip, I totally agree where you are coming from, but its what weve got!

[stewbow]

I finished installing a Fire Alarm system today on a road full of guest houses, the owner has taken on board all of the advice about the RRO that I have offered him.
At the end of the afternoon there was a conversation at his front gate with a couple of other guest house owners, and they are all convinced that they don't have to upgrade their fire alarm systems until they eventualy get round to doing it, because the Fire Officers have told them that "as long as they are making plans to do the work at sometime in the future (unspecified)," then he is happy.

These people are talking about "maybe" doing the work next year.

I keep telling these owners that IMO, if in the meentime there is a fire in their premises, they may very well be prosecuted for not having the required level of fire protection, irrespective of the fact that the FO has given them more time to put their plans into opertation.

I am right here aren't I?

Only yesterday, a local hotelier was fined £3,500 with £3,000 costs for exactly the same  thing.

This is the link about the orrginal fire, the court case was only yesterday and as such has not made it onto the website just yet.


http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/regionalnews/tm_objectid=15936358%26method=full%26siteid=50142-name_page.html

[Gasmeter]

It seems to me that the fire officer in question is being unprofessional by not impressing some sense of urgency on these owners; it wouldn't look good in court if the enforcing authority was was saying to people "Do it at your leisure".

[Pip]

Sorry, maybe I am either not making myself clear, or misunderstanding your points.We are not supposed to be prescriptive, the concordat is against that.My FRS will not be taking the 'enforcement' line without taking into account the concordat.Therefore we will not be like 'traffic' wardens ie non negotiable.

[Pip]

.................and any work required should be done in an agreed action plan with a time frame(what those 'time frames are going to be who knows,FRS will have a reasonable stab at them, but ultimately it will be for the courts to decide.)

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

So, if I as a guest house owner was to say the the fire officer that I'm going to have my alarm system upgraded but due to budgetry constraints it will not be for the next 8 months, that is not acceptable?

An action plan is an agreed arrangement between the Fire Authority and the Responsible Person which will set both realistic and reasonable timescales to have work completed, even if this means having it done in stages or as in my hypothetical instance, 8 months later.
If these are not met, then an enforcement notice can still be issued ........ and it's still within the concordat as the fire authority have been reasonable.

[Pip]

i would suggest that 8 months is too long,going on old guidance for 'certificated work', 3 months would be the norm.If the occupier did not like it, they could challenge in a court, and may be we would have an answer!

[Martin Burford]

stewbow

what's wrong with the existing fire alarm system ?
Conquerot

[stewbow]

The majority of the fire alarm systems in the seaside guest houses that I am talking about still have Gents Model 85 Panels.
These were I believe state of the art systems, mostly fitted around 1973-74.
They generaly consist of the one bell in the panel, and one bell on each floor level.
Heat detectors (the old bi-metal mercury type) in the ground floor rooms, and one smoke detector at the top of the stairs.
There is no detection in the bedrooms (rooms where people sleep leading onto an esacpe route), and the sound pressure level is well below the required 75dB in the bedrooms.
These buildings, I am led lo believe require a BS 5839 Part 1:2002 L2 type system installed.

[zimmy]

Ideally yes, but at least it has a working alarm. A hotel I inspected last year has two floors and approx 40 bedrooms. Due to statutory bar it has no detection whatsoever and only call points on landings and exits. It has been like this for decades. personally I think it is unreasonable to enforce a L2 system within 3 months. I would agree an action plan something on the lines of MoE and common areas in 3 months, groung floor rooms next year and possibly first floor beds the year after. Every case will be different, every inspector will agree different action plans...so much for consistancy of enforcement!

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

And here was I thinking that we were getting away from the presrciptive methods!!

How do you enforce when my hypothetical guest house has fire detection fitted, which I am prepared to upgrade folowing the information in the guide which I have so diligently read and applied and as a result produced an action plan based on my significant findings?

Will I be making an appearance in court because I can't produce the  money for 8 months?

I certainly hope not!!!

[Martin Burford]

Stewbow

So that I am clear about this seaside guest house situation, what is your role in this, are you a fire safety officer, [ or ex FSO[] or a fire alarm installer ?... your narrative so far is not clear.
Conqueror.

[stewbow]

Conqueror

I am indeed a Fire Alarm Installer with 25 years experience (still scratching my head with confusion).

It's all very interesting, there is a hoteliers conference locally next Wednesday, some "Risk Assessment guy" is going to give a little talk on the subject, but I can see him only dishing out grey because there doesn't appear to be much black and white.

Stew

[wee brian]

Grey is all that's available. "Due Dilligence" and "Reasonable Provision" is what any court will be looking at. That's pretty grey stuff.

I think a written action plan is going to be a good defence but nothing is certain.

[Pip]

'guidance' =inconsistency.live with it or change your job.