Author Topic: first stage alarm  (Read 34521 times)

Offline Ron Winwood

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first stage alarm
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2006, 12:01:01 PM »
I have found out that the company who failed our alarm had quoted for the work in the first place (unknown to me) they said our system does not comply with BS5839 2002 part1 but with part6 instead, Rafiki has told me it does.
Because the new shop unit tennant cannot open he has instructed me to "Rip it out" all at my cost (and be installed by the company who failed our system)
If somebody has got the time to read the original spec, i will type it out word by word.
it states in short " must comply to BS5839 2002 part1" and is followed by a multi event check list - which our system met it was only at the witness check was it mentioned first stage must be continuous.

Ron

Offline Ron Winwood

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first stage alarm
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2006, 12:10:24 PM »
P.S if anybody thinks i am to tight to purchase all BS documents thats not the case. I had my briefcase lifted (from my car boot) with tons of documents and my lappy
so ive got to wait for father christmas to come.

Ron

Offline Ron Winwood

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first stage alarm
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2006, 12:11:37 PM »
Ps i promise i wont do anymore ps,s

Offline Wiz

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first stage alarm
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2006, 12:26:29 PM »
Ron,
BS5839 2002 Part 6 relates to systems in domestic dwellings. I can't see that this has any reference to your system. Also it is not normally someone's job to calculate which Standard a system actually complies with, but normally only to confirm if it does or does not comply with the Standard it has been said the system should comply with. I reckon this other company is trying to overwhelm you and your customer with Bull***t!!! Don't let them get away with it!

I'm pretty sure that the equipment you are using is compliant in itself, but what is not compliant with BS5839 2002 Part 1 is the way you have programmed (configured) the panel to operate.

As many of us have previously advised, get the panel reconfigured by an engineer to do what you are now being asked to provide. It will probably take minutes and not cost a lot. It will defintely be cheaper than ripping the whole lot out!

For your information there are many British Standards. BS5839 2002 Part 1 covers the design, installation, commissioning and servicing of the type of building you are involved with. There are also other BS that cover the various parts of equipment (that relate to how they should be designed and manufactured). For example, BSEN54-2 is for control and indicating equipment. BS5839 2002 Part 1 recommends the use of equipment that meets the other BS design and manufacturing recommendations.

Your Rafiki panel will meet the BS recommendations for design and manufacture. Rafiki are a big company who know what they are doing. They surely wouldn't manufacture a panel that doesn't comply, and they have confirmed to you that it does.

When you use any panel in an installation, the design, installation, commissioning and servicing of that system should comply with BS5839 2002 Part 1.

It is normally possible to configure BS compliant equipment, that is programmable, to suit a non-compliant installation. This may be required where a specific non-compliant requirement is made to suit the building type or use of that building. When this is done, the non-compliant element could be agreed, in writing, by all relevant parties as a Variation. This then basically becomes a BS compliant system because there is an agreed Variation!

Graeme

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first stage alarm
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2006, 04:47:11 PM »
Quote from: RonWinwood
I have found out that the company who failed our alarm had quoted for the work in the first place (
sour grapes perhaps?

Offline Ron Winwood

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first stage alarm
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2006, 06:26:26 PM »
Cheers Wiz i have programmed the panel with the good help of rafiki - the max time it holds on to first stage
( so long as smoke as gone ) is 7.1/2 mins and if all clear resets - can this be against BS???

And Graham yes its feels that way - at great cost to me

does anybody know of any good consultants that could at least back me up a little
we are talking david and goliath here !!!

Thanks,
Ron

Offline Ron Winwood

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first stage alarm
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2006, 11:31:46 AM »
In Reply to David Rooney (? No14)
Its a new installation - the original installation was part of buildings main loop - no seperate control panel
the specification - very basic - was supplied by the shopping centre management - just stating that the system
should conform to BS5839 2002 part 1 and pass a long list requirements (which our system did) No mention anywhere or by anyone untill the day of the witness test regarding length of time for stage 1
I have recently learned ADT failed above test 4 times in another unit

It has been certified - i did not know of any variations

Ron

Offline Ron Winwood

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first stage alarm
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2006, 12:45:44 PM »
Here follows the spec, for which our system met - this was supplied by shopping centre management
as you can see no mention time for first stage timing.

Ron.

General Requirements:
All Shop Units Are To Be Served With An Analogue Addressable Fire Alarm Control Panel.
The System Must Have The Ability To Signal Via Clean Change Over Contacts The Londlords Main Interface
Without Exception.
The Level of Design Must Be Of on LI Standard to B.S5839 Port 1 2002.
We Recommend That You Contact The Local Fire Officer And Building Control Before You Instruct Any Work.

Shop Unit Cabling To Landlords Interface:
The Wiring between The Tenants Shop Panel and Landlord’s Interface is The Responsibly of The Tenants
Contractor.
It Must Be Classed As Prolonged Operation of Fire’ and Calculations of Volt Drop Etc Based Upon The I.E.E Wiring
Regulations. The Following Signals Are Required:
•   24v Auxiliary Supply (To Power Landlords Interface)
•   Closed Fault Contacts (Open Any Common Fault Shop Panel) ~
•   Stage 1 Signal (To Close En Fire Condition)
•   Stage 2 Signal (To Close In Fire Condition)
•   Evacuation Input (Open In Normal State Closed By Landlords Fire System As Applicable)
•   Sprinkler Valve Tamper/Partial Closed (Normal State Closed Open When Valve Operated To Valve Off)


Conformity Check List (Do Not Request Witness Test Unless You Your System Conforms To the Following

1.Commissioning Paperwork Available
2.Tenant Panel Clear of All Fault Indications
3.Single Knock Operation (Single Detector)
4.Stage I Transfer Only
5.Shop Unit Alarms Pulsing       . .
6.Music Relay Operated    
7.Double Knock Operation (Another Detector Alarmed)    
8.Stage 2 Transfer    
9.Shop Unit Alarms Continuous
10.Music Relay Operated
11.Air Conditioning Relay Operated   
12.Red Beacon Operated
13.Manual Call Point Operated   
14.Stage 2 Transfer Only
15.Shop Unit Alarms Continuous
16.Music Relay Operated
17.Air Conditioning Relay Operated
18.Red Beacon Operated
19.Sprinkler Flow Switch Operated
20.Stage 2 Transfer Only
21.Shop Unit Alarms Continuous
22.Music Relay Operated
23.Air Conditioning Relay Operated
24.Red Beacon Operated
25.Evac Input Signal From building main panel
26.No Stage 1 or 2 Relays To Operate
27.Common Fault From Shop Panel Tested Outward
28.Valve Tamper/Partial Closed Tested Outward (Wired Directly from Valve To Landlord Interface Not Connected To Shop Unit).

Offline Ron Winwood

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first stage alarm
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2006, 12:56:03 PM »
On the failure notice it read:
Shop unit panel non compliance in relation to auto silence & reset (part 6 not part 1 2002)

No zone lamp indication upon stage 1 activation refer to item in relation auto reset non
compliance, transparent signal

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2006, 08:21:36 PM »
Quote from: RonWinwood
Cheers Wiz i have programmed the panel with the good help of rafiki - the max time it holds on to first stage
( so long as smoke as gone ) is 7.1/2 mins and if all clear resets - can this be against BS???
Ron,
I can see nothing on the outline specification asking for automatic reset. It is not recognised in BS5839 2002 Part 1. Why have you included it?

There is probably no mention of any stage 1 timing because there is no need for any. My guess is stage one (one detector operating) initiates the local shop sounders only and signals the shopping centre control who will investigate but not yet evacuate the whole shopping centre. Stage two (second detector operates) initiates a signal to the shopping centre control centre who will start immediate evacuation, of the whole shopping centre if it is open. If your system automatically resets after a timed period, it is against the shopping centres agreed system of identifying and responding to possible fire conditions.

I also note that you say no fire zone indicator operates on stage one. Why not? This is also not recommended in BS 5839 part 1 2002.

A previous posting advises changing the detector operation from 'dwelling' to 'communal ' to get rid of the auto reset. I have no experience of this Rafiki system but I'm guessing you haven't done this becaus you can't get one of the other specified requirements to work without using it, possibly the two stage action? If this is the case then you have a big problem. You obviously have to comply with the specification and that includes complying with BS5839 2002 part 1.

I'm sorry if I disappont you, but you are not going to find anyone on this site willing to say something complies, if they know it doesn't.

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2006, 09:05:31 PM »
Dr Wiz O wise one

Would BSEN 54 also specify zone indication on first knock or would the address of the device on the display be enough for the european code? I seem to think in the clouded confusion of my troubled mind there is a difference between the two standards on this?

Offline Ron Winwood

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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2006, 07:35:59 AM »
Do you all think that at least an unlimited time on stage 1 be mentioned in their spec,??
Is Rafiki wrong to say the panel complies with both BS5839 and EN54 ???
Should the lives of people be "clouded" in all this confusion ???
The panel only resets in stage 1 if smoke clears.
Cant common sense prevail here ??

Ron

Offline Wiz

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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2006, 09:19:31 AM »
Yes, Kurnal my friend. We have mentioned before on this site the requirement for fire zone indicators in BS5839 2002 Part 1 when, amazingly, there is no requirements for fire zone indicators on addressable panels in the related European standard. The simple fact is that generally, and specifically in Ron's project, the requirement is for compliance with BS5839 2002 Part 1, so there is no confusion as to what is required in this case.

However the zone indicator is not the major issue here, and since Ron has indicated that there is fire zone indciation for stage 2 surely it could be made to work on stage one.

After all this time, I think we have got to the stage where it is obvious that it seems the Rafiki equipment cannot be programmed to do everything that Ron's customer asked for, otherwise Ron would have had it reprogrammed. Therefore it is patently unsuitable for the job in his customer's eyes. Whilst the Rafiki panel obviously complies with the Standards for control and indicating equipment. It seems it cannot be programmed to give the functions required without including a function that is not recognised in BS5839 2002 Part 1. This is the standard required for this type of premises and unless Ron's customer and other relevant parties agree a Variation, then it simply will not comply. Why should his customer and others agree to this non-compliance with BS5839 2002 Part 1 if they specifically mentioned it must do?

Sorry Ron, but I think you have no simple way out of this problem (see below). It is important to check you can meet a customer's requirements exactly before agreeing to take on a job.

May I also offer some advice, Ron? Never choose a system with a 'closed' protocol (operating language) when you have a choice. It would seem that Rafiki's panel can't do what you want it to do. If you had chosen say, Apollo or Hochiki, for your accessories you would now have a choice between dozens of control panel manufacturers, one of which, would surely have a configuration programme that would do what you want it to. This would obviously mean the replacement of a control panel only instead of the whole system.

p.s. Ron, are you sure Rafiki cannot find a way around this problem? Most addressable panels I have ever used have so many programmable functions that there is almost always a way around this sort of problem. Sometimes the solution involves the use of extra relays and/or input/output units, but it is a solution. I have no experience of Rafiki so I can offer no specific solutions for your problem. You might also want to try asking in the fire section of the security installer forum, there are dozens of 'techies' hiding in there, and some of them might have Rafiki experience.

Offline Ron Winwood

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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2006, 06:37:54 PM »
The basic answer i am begging for is,
Is what they were asking for a "variation" to BS ??
and should it have been mentioned on the spec, i sent earlier as i mentioned before it
was only during the witness test this was mentioned
Have i got anything to go on
And yes given more time i could have solved the problem somehow - i was given a day
to sort it - or rip it out

Thanks all

Ron

Offline kurnal

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first stage alarm
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2006, 07:04:55 PM »
It looks to me Ron that what they were asking for was full compliance with BS5839 part 1 2002  system type L1. All the interfaces they describe in their acceptance test whilst not specifically detailed in the BS are in keeping with it though the last point  28 does not appear to be relevant to the acceptance test as it is not part of the tenants system.

From your description the system you installed did not comply with BS5839 part 1  for several reasons-
principally BS5839 part 1 does not provide for automatic reset of first knock alarms and your first knock alarm did not give a zone indication on the panel.

If the compliance with BS5839 part 1 was  essential to the contract you were snookered from the outset. A BSEN54 panel is unlikely to give zone alarms because BSEN 54 does not call for it. This would not have normally been a serious problem though and could have been recorded as an accepted deviation from BS5839 part 1 on the commissioning certificate. But only if the client was prepared to accept the deviation. Most clients probably would be prepared to do so because the BSEN 54 panel  is generally accepted as a suitable component to use within BS5839 systems.

The self resetting first knock alarm is not recognised or covered by BS5839 part 1 so this would not comply. However it may have been possible to reconfigure the panel to eliminate this and to make your panel comply with BS5839 part 1.

So it seems they just held you to the spec word for word and the system you provided was a variation to their spec and to the BS5839 part 1.  What did you ask your supplier to provide? You could have some comeback if you handed their spec to your supplier.