Author Topic: Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires  (Read 25093 times)

Offline wee brian

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2006, 10:34:50 PM »
toxic smoke Ashley!

Is there another kind?

Offline ian gough

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2006, 08:27:36 AM »
I'm confused Brian???? I suggest by calling something by different names is where the confusion arises.

How much information do you folks need about polystyrene?

Offline Ashley Wood

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2006, 10:08:35 AM »
Well spotted Brian, you win the prize for picking me up on that!

What would you call the heavy, dense & acidic smoke produced by polystyrene rather than the smoke produced by wood etc? : - )

Offline wee brian

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2006, 01:26:17 PM »
heavy, dense & acidic smoke is a good start - wood smoke will kill you too. Sorry mate, I know its pedantic but people get confused.

I suspect that a SIPS built house will behave rather differently to a Sandwich Panel structure so some research is going to be a good idea. As has been suggested it wiould be interesting to know what experiences fire fighters across the pond have had.

Offline Fishy

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2006, 12:47:46 PM »
The Timber Research & Development Association (TRADA) say they've looked at these systems:

www.trada.co.uk/techinfo/research/293-HealthNsafety_evaluation.htm?hl=sips%2Csip

I'd be pretty sure that fire safety was part of the remit.  Doesn't say what the conclusions are.

Intuitively, I'd say that you could design them so they comply with the Reg's fairly easily, but if/when the fire breaks through the linings and through/around openings total loss is probably on the cards.

Offline Mark Newton

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2006, 03:14:49 PM »
Insurers will assume 100% loss for these structures (always assuming that they can recognise them, which is a real problem in many cases). This estimation process is often a little pessimistic, but not for this construction method, IMHO.
It will be relatively easy to construct a SIP that will pass the current tests: not least because currently the wall/ceiling junctions are not tested. This is where I would expect real weakness.
The structures are likely to be deteriorating, at least in fire performance terms. throughout their lives, not only as adhesives/foams etc age, but also as a result of ordinary human occupation. These buildings have a lifespan. Would you buy one that was thirty years old?
The lifespan issue isn't necessarily a problem, provided everyone is aware. For commercial buildings, where the cost can be amortised over the lifespan, no problem. Potential owner-occupiers may wish to consider the longer term, however.
Incidentally, much of above is true for other 'Modern Methods of Construction'.
And don't get me started about MMC fire performance during the construction phase. I didn't see much comment on this forum about the fire at Colindale a few months back, which surprised me. That was scary!

All above opinions my own, of course.

Offline wee brian

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2006, 03:34:41 PM »
What's so suprising about a big pile of wood producing a big fire?

Offline jokar

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2006, 03:40:37 PM »
Or anything combustible.  Build safely how you like reduce and prevent fire risk, get people out where necessary and let the FRs adapt their offensive or defensive tactics to suit.  Mind you, they may have to undertake a little more training than the stuff most firefighters and officers get at present.

Offline Mark Newton

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2006, 04:09:22 PM »
Nothing at all, Wee B.
What was surprising was the amount of damage done to other, apparently occupied, buildings that were 'officially' far enough away not to be affected by the radiated heat from what turned out to be a test crib on steroids.

Offline wee brian

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2006, 10:45:32 PM »
The space seperation rules are dependant on both buildings, iether side of the boundary, being compliant.

An incomplete timber frame would/did produce much more radiation than it would when complete.

Offline SIPTEC

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2006, 11:35:22 AM »
In practice PUR cored sips perform much better that Timber frame panel buildings,
Principly because, there is no oxygen to sustain combustion within the sip and there is NO CHIMNEY EFFECT with air venting up the void.

EPS Sips are nothing like as safe as PUR cored Sips,

Unscrupulas firms quote BS 476 fire resistance  this is usually part 6 7 and only applies to surface spread of flame.

This is where BS gets confusing  BS476  Part 21 is a toatly different fire test not only in price but application.

My firms products have been tested on three ocasions to part 21  and passed  sustained loading thermal insulation.
structural integrity.
I have never seen eps panels pass this part 21 fire tset.

I have also witnessed and photographed a accidental fire started in a Sip building hotel by a careless plumber.

IT REALY DID SELF EXTINGUISH  despite the attendance by half of the Cheshire fire service terning up to an auto alarm.

Offline jokar

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Structural Insulated panels-structural performance in fires
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2006, 10:35:42 AM »
www.epic.uk.com have a free download on insulated panels and the RR(FS)O in pdf for anyone interested.