Author Topic: Using non evac lift for evac??  (Read 21475 times)

Offline kurnal

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2006, 06:51:49 PM »
Looks good redone- wish all homes were taking the same responsible and realistic approach.

So many homes do not have lift lobbies though- so often they open directly into bedroom corridors.

Would you ever consider the "defend in place" strategy as proposed in the new guide?
Do you still allow or teach the old person manual handling techniques for a real emergency- eg evacuation of rooms in the fire zone? I still do.

Offline Brian Catton

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2006, 05:39:16 PM »
The new firecode document HTM 05 02 Part E escape lifts for healthcare premises is interesting. Just been published on 21st December

messy

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2006, 07:45:26 AM »
Brian

Is it downloadable or do the Govt want more of my hard earned ca$h?????

Offline Brian Catton

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2006, 04:37:32 AM »
It is only downloadable for the NHS via the DOH knowledge and information portal which is passworded.

Otherwise I am afraid you have to purchase it via th Stationery office. I believe it is £12.

Details and executive summaries of all the new Firecode docs are available on the following link

http://195.92.246.148/nhsestates/knowledge/knowledge_content/home/home.asp

Offline Fishy

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2006, 08:57:58 AM »
This is a tricky one...

Fire protection to means of escape is typically designed only to protect for a fairly limited period of time.  Forget any thought of  "I'll have 30 mins to manage escape" - this is only the test rating and it may have nothing to do with how long the separation will last in a fire (particularly doorsets - which are commonly incorrectly installed, and the smoke seals are, in my experience, usually U/S).

When people 'risk assess' the use of a non-evacuation lift for means of escape, I've seen the following 'interesting' assumptions....

1) it is unlikely that there will be a power failure.  

...however, it could be an electrical supply fault that caused the fire.  Sprinklers could be going off elsewhere in the building - which could cause a power failure.  It's a common Fire Brigade tactic to cut power, when they commence operations.  It could be the power failure that caused the fire in the first place (e.g. hot kit losing its cooling). There will inevitably be other single points of failure in the power supply.  All this can be risk assessed, but it requires a detailed knowledge of the systems involved;

2) Staff will carry out a 'dynamic' risk assessment to determine whether the lift is safe to use.

How do they know?  Can they tell if smoke from the fire is leaking into the lift shaft elsewhere (it might be perfectly clear where they are)?  Have they any appreciation of how fast a fire can develop in an enclosed space, and how fast smoke can move?  To be able to assess a risk, you have to have the relevant training and experience.  It's hard for me to see how non-specialists can ever be expected to take this sort of decision on the spot;

3)  Power failure is the only reason why a lift won't work.  

How about failure of the Building Management System, if there is one?  These are commonly linked to the lifts, these days, and if the BMS falls over as a result of the emergency all sorts of 'interesting' things could happen to the lifts.  If you do get smoke in the vicinity of the lift, the anti-finger trapping sensors could 'think' it's an obstruction and the doors won't close.  The fire could affect the lift control circuits directly.  There must be other failure modes that I haven't thought of...

I could go on.  Personally, I was really disappointed to see the use of non-evacuation lifts mentioned in the guides with so little advice on how to assess whether they are acceptable or not - a real cop-out by the authors.  This is a huge and growing issue for the Fire industry.  So many premises managers are struggling to match the alterations they wish to make to improve accessiblity with robust, credible and practicable fire emergency management plans.  There is little doubt that lifts other than those that fulfil all the criteria in BS5588-8 can have a role to play in this, but our industry must develop some cogent guidance to help those struggling to deal with this tricky issue.  PEEPs are one answer, but are hard to make robust, and don't necessarily help visitors or members of the public (where they have access to the premises), especially it it's lightly staffed).

Offline JB

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2006, 01:11:49 PM »
We have been investigating handling aids to use in our care homes in an emergency. So far the most successful is a type of portable mattress, narrower than a bed mattress, with straps to keep the person secure, and handles so that it can be dragged along a corridor and down the stairs. The underside is covered with parachute silk which makes sliding it reasonably easy. This was manufactured for us by our hoist servicing contractor, and is still being tested. It seems to be much easier to use than a ski sheet under the mattress, which tends to be too heavy due to the weight of the mattress and the person. The only problem is transferring the person from their bed onto the "mattress".
We have looked at evac chairs but found them difficult to use.

Offline Ken Taylor

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2006, 10:03:05 PM »
That brings back memories, JB, of being tied up in a mattress and dragged across the floor in a hospital ward as part of fire training (we never risked actually dragging them down the stairs in case of injury!). This was easier when floors were polished lino (or even vinyl) as carpets tend to increase friction.

All this sort of training (whether ski-sheets or evacuation chairs) seems to take place with able-bodied volunteers rather than sick, disabled, confused or elderly persons (fortunately) - but the reality is the worry.

Offline kurnal

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2006, 11:11:27 PM »
But it is reality Ken- I remember a fire in a cottage hospital bay in the 70s where the staff and fire service had to do just that, some patients evacuated in their beds but others removed from them due to the need for speed and the congestion that arose- I recollect an electrical fault with thick black smoke, pillows being involved and the whole thing made worse by medical oxygen.

Offline Redone

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2007, 12:27:16 PM »
HNY folks,

Kurnal, we've got a couple of 'Albac mats' in each home for a very rapid evac, dire if we need to use them!

Procedurally, we operate a SPP while the staff perform the initial investigation.  The senior will decide to evac on the spot.

We do perform evac drills using residents if possible... or substituting them with staff who take on the attributes of the residents, very entertaining... and gives us far as is safely possible a real time senario for the evac.

Appreciate Fishy's comments.  To assist the Senior, a laminated A3 floor plan is provided showing fire compartmentation, location of PFE, SD/HD, exit routes, fire service access routes, LX/water/gas cut off's.  Parts of the building are hatched out - if a fire occurs in these areas the lift MUST NOT be used - i.e. LMR, Main LX. Not perfect and never will be.  We can just do our best with the existing building stock.

Don't mention night time staff/resident ratio's.

Fire officer last month threatened to procecute due to night staffing levels, promised to close the home day after being served.  I agree with him totally regards the ability to perform a full evac at night.  The manager tell's me it's not viable as a business to run this particular home with extra staff.

Mitch

Offline Ken Taylor

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2007, 05:48:38 PM »
I have never dared to use persons in care in the manual handling aspects of evacuation training of this type for fear of the repercussions from relatives and premises management if one of them is injured in the process. Moving in-bed, transfer to wheelchair and assisted walking are all normal activities for those whose care plans provide for this - but when it comes to dragging about and the like, willing staff members seem a more prudent option!

Offline Redone

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2007, 06:37:23 PM »
Wouldn't dream of dragging folks about Ken, not even staff who are willing.  Just simulating an evac, provides an opportunity for seniors to supervise and think on their feet.  Using normal every day manual lifting techniques and the kit on site, an 8 bed upper floor corridor can be cleared to ground floor in under nine minutes ish...  and thats taking it steady.  Don't know if that's good or bad, every home is different, but we have a starting point.

The residents who do 'join in' have to be willing, and can and do opt out when something goods on the TV.

Offline hughskid

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2007, 11:44:00 PM »
Although I would agree, as I'm sure most of you will  that Redone has made a lot of progress with the care homes, but I dont think hotels and care homes can be classed has the same type of building. I work with a number of large hotels in central London and would agree with kurnal over the power supply issues.

Care homes and hotels are sleeping accomadation and that is where the similarity ends.

Offline John Webb

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2007, 10:43:00 AM »
The latest issue of "Fire Prevention & Fire Engineers Journal" (Jan 2007) has a short item (page 4) saying that the subject of using lifts to evacuate people from a burning building is to be the subject of a year's research at the Shanghai Science and Technology Commission. An international conference on the subject is due to take place in Shanghai later this year.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline Fishy

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2007, 12:20:12 PM »
I wonder what those premises that have introduced access via short-rise 'platform' lifts, or the industrial versions of stairlifts do, as regards evacuation?  Does anyone have any experience?

Offline Ken Taylor

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Using non evac lift for evac??
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2007, 08:31:47 PM »
From observations, Fishy, some have an evacuation chair at the top of the stairs and others have no readily evident arrangement.