Painting Fire Extinguishers

[Tom Sutton]

I agree the RP owns the FRA but if he if he ignores recommendations in the Guides, British/European Standards and he ends up in court, the court will most likely accept the standards as good practice and most probably find against him. Consequently any fire risk assessor should bring any such matters to his attention.

[afterburner]

I agree absolutely, the competent fire risk assessor would bring such matters to the attention of the RP. But if the RP rejects the advice and does their own thing has an offence been committed? Where does the fire risk assessor stand after such a rejection of competent advice? I also agree with Anthony B earlier that such a rejection would normally indicate a cavalier attitude to fire safety, but it may be the cavalier approach would be accpetable. As for Courts accepting the published, recognised guidance, well that is open to debate too

[Jim Creak]

Well done...For it will be the court to decide whether the responsible persons actions were appropriate taking best practice as the bench mark. After all we a still just about surviving as free country without state nanny control. I am concerned about his decision but he is free to make it. After all we must assume that all his staff are fully aware of location and appropriate use and Fire safety management procedures and practices are of the highest order. Otherwise if the proverbial hits the fan he should spend a long time in prison.

[Mike Buckley]

Looking at the RRO guidance on provision of fire fighting equipment, the words "should" and "good practice" are used which follows the general line that people are free to paint their extinguishers. In the case of a prosecution I would think the onus would be on the prosecuting authority to make the case that the fire extinguishers were not appropriate to the risk, how can you argue that a yellow fire extinguisher is not suitable just because of its colour?
Obviously you cannot sell a yellow fire extinguisher and claim it complies to the current standards but I can't see anything that says you cannot sell or buy it. Think about it how many old brass ctc extinguishers do you see in antique shops, vehicles etc.

[Firewolf]

even with a risk assessment it is absalutly stupid to allow this to continue.
as for stainless steel,  i have been told by bafe ithey arent best practise to mix and match them.

i think we need to apply basic common sence here and tell the person to replace them asap

Richard,
You cannot tell the person to replace them, you may consider it appropriate to advise them. But the fact that they do not comply with BSEN3 or keep BAFE happy does not necessarily mean they need replacing. Prescription is not the way forward, even if you consider this to be ABSALUTLY SToooopid.

Absolutely or sorry "absalutly" correct PhilB. As an enforcing officer I think I may have a hard job taking the hotel owner to task over the colour of his extinguishers.

Yes the BS would say they must be red etc etc but please remember guests should not be fighting fire - they  won't necessarily have received suitable training (Guests may have done a bit of training in the course of their work or other pursuits but they certainly wont have received training by the hotel!)

If the hotel owner has put up accompanying signage with the extinguishers and given adequate staff training I would suggest it would be laughed out of court if I attempted to prosecute over that.

It would also probably culminate with the judge having a quiet word with me for wasting his time and discussing how much the fire authority owed on court costs!

If accompanying signage wasn't present and there was zero staff training then maybe I'd have an avenue to pursue - but it would be more about the lack of staff training than the colour of his extinguishers!

[Tom Sutton]

If the hotel owner has put up accompanying signage with the extinguishers and given adequate staff training I would suggest it would be laughed out of court if I attempted to prosecute over that.

Surely if the hotel owner is painting his extinguishers the same colours as the decor then he is trying to merge them into the background. If this is so the last thing he is likely to do is use signs or labels that indicate the location and type of extinguisher, this would defeat his purpose. Consequently is he in breach of the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations?

[messy]

Bovvered? I aint. As an IO, I am more than aware that there are 1001 dodgy places out there - some of them sleeping risks- which may need enforcement, 'educating' or intervention of some sort to make them safe(r).

So I am unlikely to ponce about comparing the colour of an extinguisher with a Dulux colour chart when the Hotel next door may be operating with a blocked exit and no working alarm.

With regards to merging the extinguishers with the background. Where can I buy this wonderful stealth camouflage paint? it sounds great!

[Tom Sutton]

Bovvered? I aint. I would be a little; however it would be low on my priority list. Providing the owner had not gone completely mad with his paint brush and I was able to identify the type of extinguisher. I would not want a trained employee using a water extinguisher on a deep fat fryer. This would push it up higher on my priority list.

[Richard Earl]

i have also been informed by BAFE that in signs and signalling act 1996 ALL fire equipment must be red or full colour code ie blue cream etc etc with no signs i will not provide a good risk assessment and as proffesionals i feel this is a rediculous stance to take that he isnt really doing anything wrong, in this day and age i feel we must advise stongly he replaces them as we all now more and more people are being trained on fire fighting equipment so their is a high posibility of a hotel guest using the extinguisher.
i cant belive this can cary on with out a problem?
sorry gents just my own thoughts

[kurnal]

I agree Richard it is completely foolish to paint extinguishers because someone doesn't like the colour. This cannot be justified from any viewpoint. Of course BAFE will recommend best practice.  And their advice is good- but if we took everybodys  best advice on everything all the time our clients would soon be bankrupt. And we would live in a world full of prescription and every building would be exactly the same. The whole point is that if you come across fire extinguishers that are the wrong colour, before throwing them away you really should ask the responsible person if they can justify a good reason why they should be kept. If they can be justified and its a big if- make that decision, record it as a significant finding and stand or fall by your judgement.

There may be more significant issues in the building that would be far more worthy of investment. A professional risk assessor will not try and make everything 100% bombproof but will settle for what they think is the right balance between safety, cost , inconvenience and difficulty.

[afterburner]

Richard, what the Health and Safety(Safety Signs & Signals) Regualtions 1996 actually say is that red is the identifying colour for all fire fighting equipment. If the equipment itself is red, this will satisfy the regulations. Where the equipment is not red, then highlighting the position of the firefighting equipment by colouring the background behind the equipment red may be enough to comply. The point here is the Regulations recognise the equipment may not be red. Probably the Regs. anticipated manufacturers not producing red equipment, and were never written to 'allow' end users to decide their colour preference, but, despite what BAFE say the Regs allow a variance in colour. Or are BAFE suggesting that stainless steel extinguishers are breaching the Regs? However, your comment  "we must advise stongly he replaces them" is fuly accepted, but, the point of the discussion is what do we do, as competent assessors, if the RP does his own thing despite our good advice?

[PhilB]

Prescription cannot be the way forward Richard but I agree with your concerns. Advice not requirement is the answer.
p.s. chaps I'm having a collection to buy Richard a new dickshionery for Krissmus, any donations appreciated.

[kurnal]

or just switch on the spell and grammar chequer like what I do

[Mike Buckley]

Afterburner the answer must be that if the RP does his own thing then there is nothing you can do. The RP has employed you to advise him and you have given him the best advice you can, if the RP chooses to ignore your advice then that is a decision that he has taken and he will be held responsible. What you need to do as an adviser is to ensure that your advice is clear, you give the reasons why he should follow your advice and the possible consequences if he does not follow your advice.

At the end of the day the RP is your customer and if he wants to pay out good money for your advice and then ignores it that is up to him, just make sure he understands what you are saying then if the proverbial does hit the fan, you can defend yourself that the RP was properly advised.

[Fishy]

Ah... but could it be that you are also a 'RP'?  It's my understanding that the RP's responsibility relates to the extent that they have "control" over the fire safety measures in the premises.  If you are performing the relevant assessment, it could be pretty difficult to divorce yourself from the concept that you have, to some extent, control over the measures, and you are therefore the RP, in that particular respect?  The result - if there is a breach in the law, you could be prosecuted directly, even if the employer isn't.

For consultants / suppliers of fire safety services, this should be a sobering thought - it ain't just your PI that's at risk!