Legal lights for reatined firefighters

[fireftrm]

Parttimeessex actually you are agreeing with me, not disagreeing. Note I said, rather clearly and exhaustively, that it was nothing to do with the government (they seem to get the blame for things way out of their control because they can be blamed easily) and that it wa, in fact, the fault of the employing FRS. If your ADO chose to accept people who lived further away, knowingt hat this would mean a pump being available, but outside the prior response time, then so be it. The FRS have obvioulsy risk assessed the position and decided that a pump mobile in 5-10 mins, instead of none at all is best. That was their decision and so increasing the speed at which RDS staff attend is not necessary anyway.

As to moving stations being economically unworkable I have to disagree. Quite oftenm a new station on an industrial esate area to the outer edges of a town will be cheap and the land, on which the present stands, further in will be worth considerably more. Employing others, even part time, is not that expensive an option in comparison to not having a pump available and sending a standby etc. We have dealt with these issues, within a very tight budgetary constraints and achieved successful outcomes. We have employed staf to cover shortages on hourly pay (other RDS or WDS on overtime) we detach WDS, we take people who are beyond the normal time and accept a late turn out, we send standby pumps, we have realigned station boundaries and we have examined moving stations, with the costings usually bringing positive benefits. Not yet moved nay, but if the situation on personnel attending was to worsen then this could be resurrected. All of this without the government being involved.

[Firewolf]

Whilst I take on board your point Fireftrm and you are right in what you are saying unfortunatley not all fire authorities are 'on the button' with regard to relocation of stations etc.

Whilst you are mainly correct in saying that it is the individual Fire Rescue Services that govern their own response times it is the norm that retained personel  are expected to live no more than five minutes from the station.

I live well within five minutes from my local station but there are too many occassions now where my colleagues and I  have been hampered / stuck behind someone or something whislt on way to the station.

The problem is traffic and its getting worse year by year. That is Im afraid a local and indeed national government problem not a Fire Service one.

I can site atleast 5 occurances in the three past weeks where I was stuck behind traffic on route to the station which has caused me to be late. I couldnt get through due to heavy traffic on what is normally a clear route. On another occasion a recovery truck was trying salvage a stranded vehicle and was holding up the traffic.If you want to know the rest PPM me and ill advise rather than ramble on here!

We aren't talking blue lights here. We aren't talking about people speeding, or firefighters breaking road traffic laws of any sort, we are simply asking for a green beacon to let others know we need to get through. People see the green light and they get out of the way. We wont be "racing through at 50 MPH" on some "hero crusade trip"

No extra training would be required as we wouldnt be driving at speed , insurance costs would not go up (i've actually enquired about this on numerous occasions and did so with three companies today following the posting of this topic) and as someone already stated there is no LEGAL REQUIREMENT to have any form of training for driving with green, blue, amber, red or for that matter any flashing colour lights.

So bearing all that in mind and whilst Firetrm's comments hold true... why cant retained firefighters in the interim until stations can be relocated for instance or indeed where that is not possible have green lights that give them no extra traffic entitlement other than to let others know they are trying to respond to an emergency.

[kurnal]

A green beacon would be so much easier to understand for other road users and would not enrage other road users in the same way that flashing of the headlights, queue jumping and honking the horn does. Supports defensive driving not agression as fireftrm illustrates.  
There are good points on all sides of this argument- and a green beacon with no exemption to other laws is the sensible easy fix to what is an increasing problem.

Think of the queuing traffic outside the fire station, the RTA blocking the road,  persons trapped, firefighters stuck in the queue trying to get to the station to sort it out and fireftrm sitting wide in the road not letting anyone past.

As a former appliance driver then a flexi officer for 23 years ( no accidents) I remember the only time I ever got frustrated and stressed going to a shout was when having to use a courtesy car without the blues and twos.  

I also recognise the priorites for our retained good guys and gals  can get warped - the stress is often caused by a desire to catch the pump rather than thoughts of those in trouble. Seen it come to blows on occasion when one firefighter has cut up another.....

[maineroad]

i think it is also odd to suggest that the government is not involved,its is all about running the job on the cheap,retd are the cheapest,day crewing next &then shift.cfo is appointed by politicians if the cfo can run the brigade cheaply thats all that matters,using retd is the favoured option wherever poss,the problem is that traditional recruiting grounds for retd local factories,people working shifts ect has changed but brigade managers just recruit from futher away thus creating the above problems,if the recruiting process was managed correctly then either the crewing status would have to change maybe w/t during the day retd at night or w/t week days only retd nights & weekend or increase turnout times all these solutions involve increase in either funding or attendence times so politically unacceptable,as to lights of any colour with traffic only getting worse a flashing light on a car in a jam is still a car in a jam they really are not the answer

[parttimeinessex]

It’s nice to have some support, another retained firefighter who is experianceing the problems of turn out times and not an ex retained or whole time member. I think its about time the whole of the retained fire service worked together and started informing the public of how the retained service works and get their support, how many of the public when asked say “you are only here to back up the full timers” (red rag to a bull ask any retained firefighter) and when the retained service is explained the respect given is amazing,  getting the public on our side with say an petition would sort this problem out, I think very quickly, think of the power a petition would have if every retained fire station got 50 signatures. Don’t forget retained firefighters are voters as well get your MP’s and councillors on your side.

[Alba]

As well as a firefighter, im in the coastguard service. This topic has been high up on the agenda at the annual meeting. Every year it is shot down. In the coastguard service there are no trained blue light drivers, despite responding with Blues and twos. As such not everyone wants do do the driving under B&2s. Out of 12 guys at my station only 4 will drive. If we get a call and out of 12 guys 5 turn up, out of the 5 their might not be anyone who wants the responsibility. They then proceed at normal driving limits. Thats if they can get to the Rescue Station in the first place. The next staion up here is around 40 miles away, and in the summertime the roads can be a nightmare. Also we have no exemptions from the road traffic act. The mobile must stop at red lights and turn off all lights and warning sirens, only when the lights change to green can they all be switched back on and we can proceed. This causes no end of confusion for Joe Public.

Under the lighting regulations, coastguards are allowed to use blue light on a private vehicle in connection with emergency calls. The problem is with the MCA (Maratime and Coastgurad Agency), the refuse point blank for Auxilliaries to use any type of light or flashing sign on our vehicles, except for the plastic visor sign which is useless.

There has been representation to a number of MPs about the use of a warning device, for Volunteers, Mountain rescue & retained personnel. Most thought it was a worthwile consideration, but when they asked the Minister responsible he didnt want anything to do with it. They are trying to come up with a paper that they can hand to the Minister to back up the arguement but its not easy.

Personally i can see reasons for and reasons against.

[AnthonyB]

Community responders are in the same position, except all their calls are potentially life threatening (no AFAs!)

Yes those itchy teeth and 2 week old back pain can be right killers!?

Shows your utter ignorance of who community responsders are!!!!

The ambulance service deals with a far far greater call volume than the FRA & yes many calls are trivial - but community reesponders are only sent to Category A life threatening emergency calls - heart attacks, etc

Waste of space calls take up a lot of ambulance hours, but we are taking about volunteer responders in private or scheme cars who respons with defibrillator and oxygen and do not transport patients.

Despite the arguements for both extensionsin light use in the fire and medical community, the Govt hasclearly stated it will not happen unless you come under the existing categories - they did their last major overhaul on lights, sirens etc last year to cover entitlements for customs & excise vehicles, pedal cycles (i kid you not!) and the military units & theri replacement agencies involved in the transport of nuclear material

[rips]

"There are good points on all sides of this argument- and a green beacon with no exemption to other laws is the sensible easy fix to what is an increasing problem. "

As soon as you allow a green light some retained firefighters will see it as an excuse to drive above and beyond normal road restrictions.


I served in the Retained for nearly 10 years, on two different stations. For most of the time I used my bike, even though I was often missed the pump if many of the car drivers were available to turnout. I can also name occasions when I was nearly knocked off my bike by fellow Retained Firefighters trying to beat me to the station. Once even turning into the station!!

On the majority of occasions I was able to beat the car users to the station.

On one station we had one lad that thought it would be a good idea to buy an amber light, fit two tones and fix his headlights so they would flash. He was stopped by the police, cautioned and told in no uncertain terms to remove all of the said items from his car.

Why on earth do you need to "race" to the station? If no-one gets there safely the pump isnt going to turn out in the first place.

I have nothing against RDS as I still have friends and family in the RDS but I see no advantage of having a light of any colour displayed in the car. I would suggest get your selves on a bike.

Also with regards to insurance for bluelight users ther is a requirement to disclose this, as it is not under the normal work purposes, and there is an extra cost involved.

[Firewolf]

Hi Rips

I do understand where you are coming from

You can't have people "racing" anywhere - all retained personnel must adhere to the rules of the road. no exceptions ni excuses, and I don't think anyone is arguing about that.

Your retained colleague who fitted sirens, flashing lights etc is an absolute pratt frankly and Im glad he was stopped!

The point here is that retained guys aren't asking for blue lights - they are simply asking for some means of informing traffic that they need to respond to station in say heavy traffic conditions which may otherwise hamper their progress.

I understand your point about the push bike and i think for people within reasonable distance from the station this is a fair point/ good compromise.

But our station isn't well staffed and often only four of us are able to be on duty. So we dont have the luxury of 6 to 7 people responding allowing the appliance to turn out at the earliest opportunity.

It has to be a balance between responding safely to station but also getting the appliance to turn out asap. The nearest back up units we have are miles away. Yes we do get alot of AFA's but you never know if the next call will be persons in life threatening situations.

One compromise I thought of is as follows. I don't know how practical it would be but could retained personnels pagers be configured to give out a code according to the type of emergency they are responding to.

For example the pager would display number 1 on the pager LCD screen if it was a Persons reported call, 2 for smaller emergencies and say a number 3 for special service / non urgent assistance.

Bluelight users do have to inform their insurance companies that they intend to use them and how. if the blue light is used as merely a measure in which to clear a path under normal road conditions etc then the premium will remain the same.

If you are talking about blue light emergency response (ie driving outside of the normal road regulations) then that is different.

Green lights would not incur any additional costs

[parttimeinessex]

You may not be aware that some brigades are looking into extending the turn out time to 7 minutes to open up the catchment area, as they can’t get enough staff. So as for using a push bike, that’s a bit old fashioned idea. Once again we have a comment from an ex retained not supporting the call for lights. Come on it can’t be so long you’ve forgotten what its like to save a life and how devastating it is to lose one. Go outside and ask the public or even ask your next door neighbour give them all the facts and then see their discus with the call out procedure, once again its peoples live not numbers the bosses are playing with.

[Andy Cole]

For example the pager would display number 1 on the pager LCD screen if it was a Persons reported call, 2 for smaller emergencies and say a number 3 for special service / non urgent assistance.

I've been on more than one AFA (ie Number 2 or 3 on the alerter) which has developed into a more serious call! One of which turned out to be a nursing home on fire and we ended up carrying 12 people out!!

Back in the good old days.....

My station used to have a siren which sounded a bit like an air raid siren, when a shout came in this thing would go off and the streets would virtually clear, all the traffic would move out the way and people on the pavement would even step into the shop doorways to make sure there was a clear path for the FF's, anyone who didn't know what the noise was were soon informed by the locals who did, this seemed to work, what about re introducing something like that?

[Firewolf]

I've been on more than one AFA (ie Number 2 or 3 on the alerter) which has developed into a more serious call! One of which turned out to be a nursing home on fire and we ended up carrying 12 people out!!

- Fair comment Andy

I believe the air raid siren system is still in use in parts of Ireland for alerting retained firefighters. I doubt it would proove popular these days here though - especially if the siren went off during early hours.

What with double glazing and the deep sleepers amongst us I would also doubt if sleeping Retties would hear the siren.

[parttimeinessex]

I also have been to afa’s when on arrival all hells breaking loose

Remember crews never go to a false alarms only return from them.

[rips]

You may not be aware that some brigades are looking into extending the turn out time to 7 minutes to open up the catchment area, as they can’t get enough staff. So as for using a push bike, that’s a bit old fashioned idea. Once again we have a comment from an ex retained not supporting the call for lights. Come on it can’t be so long you’ve forgotten what its like to save a life and how devastating it is to lose one. Go outside and ask the public or even ask your next door neighbour give them all the facts and then see their discus with the call out procedure, once again its peoples live not numbers the bosses are playing with.

I would like to respond to your comments made above. Since when has riding a bike been an old fashioned idea? As I said in my previous comment I still have friends and family in the RDS and some of them use a bike, or even run. What about a moped instead then, if you "haven't" got time to use a push bike?

Just because I am ex-retained has nothing to do with me not supporting the call for lights. I objected as a union official when I represented the Retained.

I am still within the Fire Service so I find it insulting for you to suggest I might have forgotten what it is like to lose or save lives. You do not forget what it is like to save life and you certainly NEVER forget what it is like when lives are lost at jobs.

Remember that we are all members of the public as well as in the FRS so are comments are from the public and we are certainly aware of all the information for both sides of the argument.

[Andy Cole]

Rips has a good point! I am retained and frequently respond by running or on my bike!

If you don't have 'time' to respond on your bike how are you going to find the time to mess about fitting the light whatever colour it is to the roof of your car and plugging it in after your alerter has gone off?

Back to the siren idea...

I wasn't suggesting it went off as an alternatiuve to the pagers/alerters (whatever you want to call them) but in addition to alert the public to your presense, I understand the problem with the early hours but why not just have it sounding between say 7am and 9pm for example, generally speaking congestion both on the roads (and the pavements for those of us that run!) isn't as much of a problem!.... just an idea.

It's unfair to think that all Wholetimers and all Ex- whatever have clouded judgement of the struggles we face as retainers, be a little more receptive to thier comments and you never know you might even learn something!