Legal lights for reatined firefighters

[Donna]

(Now pt essex where is your evidence? Please detail exactly how many times your appliance fails to turn out within the 5 minutes, due solely to the slow response of RDS staff delayed by traffic.)


Thankyou  Fireftrm for asking the question I have been dying to ask?

As a simple member of the public, I have read the posts and have been following this topic from the start,
Can I ask you, (from a member of the publics view only) "pt essex" with a simple Yes/No answer, Have you personally actually ever missed a shout, due to the distance you live from your station?

If the answer is "Yes", then do you now feel guilty or anxious that you might miss it again? ( a totally justifyable feeling)
If the answer is "no", then I am getting the feeling that you are expecting not to get to the station on time soon, is so, then this is problem that you need to get sorted out quick, as it will affect your concentration, and therefore affect your ability to actually be a good fireman.

Does it make you feel that you, are not/might not, able to give 100% to your job due to the possible scenarios above,

And given your own circumstances, distance from station etc, Any coloured light will not change this, If I lived near a fireperson, that I knew, has a conscious knowledge that they live "possibly" too far away to travel at a "safe" speed to the station, and given the high stress levels etc, to do a good job, and therefore justified the fact for them to use a "Light" on their car, I would whisper to myself "D*** H***" sorry!

I am aware that many proffessionals that I come into contact with are sadly having to take a change of direction in their careers, purely as their hands are tied by "red tape" and they cannot or are not allowed to do what they regard as "their jobs properly", I am mainly reffering to Nurses and some Social workers and Occupational therapists, some have "got out" due to high stress levels, and 2 I know have stayed, but sadly they are not half the dedicated proffessionals that they were, and in my personal opinion only, they are now making very WEAK members of their team.

Everyone copes differently, I do not know you personally, but I hope you would want to know how it seems to me, as a member of the public,

[Mike Buckley]

Donna,

How the system should work is: the alerters go off and the retained firefighters go to the station, when there is a crew for the appliance it leaves the station and goes to the incident.

Under the old fire service organisation everywhere had a risk rating A,B,C,D and Remote Rural and each of these ratings had an attendance time, which the Fire Service had to attain. The retained stations mainly covered D risk areas and the attendance was that one pumping appliance should be there within twenty minutes of the call. The stations were situated so that the brigade could achieve this. The planning was that it would take a retained crew 5 minutes to get the appliance on the road and then 15 minutes travelling time to get to the incident. Usually if the retained appliance did not turnout within 5 minutes of the call then the Control Room had orders to mobilise another appliance to respond to the call.

The assumption was that more firefighters would respond than were actually needed, those firefighters who attended but did not go out were paid an attendance fee and then returned to what they were doing and a time limit applied to how long after the call this would apply.

The aim of the system was to get a fully crewed fire appliance to the incident as soon as possible. If the incident was attended within the time limit the system had worked. The system was not designed to ensure that every retained firefighter got to go out on every call.

[Donna]

Mike,  Thanks for explaining, as I have said I am totally ignorant to the way the rules are for you lot, so I hope persons wont mind me asking questions?
You said that is "How the system should work" but are there often cases where retained firefighters dont actually get to the station, either because of heavy traffic, or a longer distance to travel?
I have a firestation with 2 pumps about a quarter of a mile from me, and most (if not all) of the retained firemen as far as I know are local, so (we personally as a community are really lucky) and the guy that lives about 5 doors away, is relaxed and never needs to drive like a maniac, and also the other guy around the corner from me is also calm on way to the station, but if someone who takes the post of a retained (supposidly needed to live near) firefighter, but actually knows the journey to the station is very stressfull due to the above mentioned reasons, is he/she genuinely going to be in the right frame of mind to do the job that they would hope to do? do you get what I meen? I just wanted to know if these problems are really holding someone back? and causing them untold stress, when they really need to have a level head for the pending emergency?

[Midland Retty]

Hi Donna

I sincerely hope no one was calling you a "simple member of the public"!

You are right - if retained firefighters are facing problems attending station in the allotted time scale some long term solutions are needed  ASAP  to resolve those problems.

But what are those solutions?

Lets look at a few examples.

Im going to sight the instance of where I live and serve which will hopefully make this argument a little clearer.

I live well within the 5 minute time limit to reach my allotted station in an emergency. No matter how desperate I’ve been to reach station I will not break the roads traffic regulations for two reasons:-

1) I don’t wish to injure or kill anyone
2) Firefighters are supposedly here to control incidents not create fresh ones

I live in a small rural location. House prices are high, we have an elderly population, and the streets are narrow.

We cant get many new recruits (house prices too high to attract younger applicants – and the elderly retired population aren’t particularly interested in joining (who would blame them I wouldn’t in my retirement) - or aren’t eligible to join.

Most days the traffic flows well, but quite often the streets can get jammed due to either inconsiderate drivers, double parking, delivery trucks and the like.

This is frustrating for all retained firefighters and I guarantee you would feel the same. Is it stressful? well yes for a short while, doesn’t stop me doing my job though frankly.

Upon reaching the station I don’t start fuming about the journey to the station – I just focus on what’s needed to be done. Probably much the same as you would I should think if you were late into work because of heavy traffic – yes it is frustrating but alas as soon as you enter your place of work you know stuff needs doing and get on with it!

I don’t do blow my top, start flashing my head lights,  swearing my head off or sitting on  my car horn!. If stuck I’m in traffic its tough…nothing I can do… although I do wonder to myself what might be the consequences of that.

You know yourself, and everyone is witness to this, that traffic is undeniably on the increase, in most areas.

In the summer our village is popular with tourists. It gets very busy. Busy narrow roads mean congestion. So as you can see we have issues.

So how do we address this – you are right something needs to be done – (Based on some of the ideas already mentioned in this topic I list below the pros and cons)

A) Could our allowed response times be increased ? Yep that’s an idea but we as well as many other retained stations are now expected to cover larger geographic areas - any further increase in time may lead to loss of life.

B) So could more retained stations be built / manned  to pick up the strain? Yep - but who will pay? and again there could be recruitment issues as mentioned above (high house prices age of population etc)

C) Could the fire station be relocated? Yep possible - but where would it be moved to? – Especially in a village where firefighters are scattered right across the locale? Will you just be relocating the problem? And of course if you could do that how much would it cost?

D) Should I move closer to the fire station? Nope can’t do that I'm afraid I couldn’t afford to – would be lovely but alas cant – And Im nto being facetious here but just pointing out fact.

E) Attend station by push bike –  Certainly an option – but some personnel don’t live close enough to reach the station on time by bike.I know I dont

F) Should retained be replaced by full time manned stations if things are that bad? - An option of course but will the Fire Service have the budget for it?

You mention you would think anyone with a flashing light is a d*** head but based on the problems I’ve highlighted above  do you still feel the same.?

Would you say you think doctors are “d**heads” – Afterall they work in a stressful environment  A friend of mine is a doctor and gets a lot of abuse using his green flashing light when responding to a call  as some people remarkably think he is just posing with it!!

And yet that doctor is trying to save life. I know that sound pretentious but I know I'd want a doctor attending a.s.a.p. to a friend or family member when they needed one most.

We aren’t glory boys and girls on some  “ Look at us with our flashy light”  power trip.

We just want to be able to try and provide the service we are paid to do. If we cant do that what is the point of us being there?

We aren’t asking to speed, or to pose we aren’t asking for blue lights, or sirens.

We are asking for those retained personnel who have encountered all the problems we have mentioned above for the means to be able to make the initial response easier and as quick as possible. Most of all we want to respond safely and consider the safety of others. Afterall someones life may depend on it.

We are asking for some means to say “we need to get through” so that the delivery driver I mentioned earlier for example might pull in to let the traffic flow, so that other road users will pull in and let us proceed etc.

You’d be amazed how much of a difference it makes. This is why emergency vehicles are fitted with those flashy lights!!!  

No one during the course of this topic has mentioned that we want to speed as it has been alledged – we would just proceed normally within the speed limit and rules of the road. So there really isn’t any change is there! Aside from the fact we might get through quicker.

Times have changed and it is getting harder – as you said a long term solution is required but what happens short term? Yep other professions are under stress of course they are! We realise that. We aren’t trying to say we have the hardest job in the world.

So whilst these are all very good suggestions and I accept some will work, they won’t work in all locations.

Please be honest Donna if now based on what Ive said see a firefighter or other emergency worker with a green flashy light based in you rear view mirror would you still honestly think to yourself " D**k Head"

[Mike Buckley]

Donna I said How the system should work because there are local variations (official or unofficial), for example some stations work a rota so that the same firefighters are not turning out all the time and the some never go out because of the time they take to get to the station.

There are two problems one is the retained firefighters getting to the station within the turnout time. This can be affected by traffic etc. Another problem is getting the appropriate cover. These days a lot of people like to live in the country and work in the city, a great deal of the recruitment problem is getting retained firefighters who can attend the station during the working day. In some areas you can get any number of retained who can attend during the evening and night but those who can attend during the day are as scarce as rocking horse droppings.

I do not hold too firmly to the saving life argument, it is very emotive but too easily disproven by statistics. The more important argument is that fires and incidents get bigger and more involved with time. The faster the appliances can get to an incident the sooner it can be dealt with and the less resources will be needed to deal with it. Take a simple example of cigarette setting fire to a building. At the earliest stage all tha is needed is for the cigarette to be stubbed out in an ashtray. One person, one to two seconds. It sets fire to wastepaper bin, one person, one extinguisher, 30 seconds. The waste paper bin sets fire to the room, one to two fire appliances, 8 to 12 firefighters, hoses, breathing apparatus, etc. The building on fire, more appliances firefighters officers etc. etc.

The whole problem is not easy to deal with, yes make all the firestations wholetime crewed, but they need to be paid for and we will have to pay either through the council tax if funded by Local Government or through other taxation if funded by the Government. Either that or cut other services, education, social services etc.

[Donna]

If I lived near a fireperson, that I knew, has a conscious knowledge that they live "possibly" too far away to travel at a "safe" speed to the station, and given the high stress levels etc, to do a good job, and therefore justified the fact for them to use a "Light" on their car, I would whisper to myself "D*** H***  sorry

Midland Retty, thankyou for your detailed post,

My comments were ONLY regarding the "retained firepersons" that actually REALISE that they have a high chance of NOT getting to the station, (as I have quoted above) and they are making a "conscious" decision to keep making the journey when they May be living too far away,

Given these facts, someone has got to "make a risk assessment" (and that really what im on about) that the person who is given "any coloured light" when they are in their private vehicle, on the way to the station, and I quote, Mike Buckley, there are more retained firefighters on standby than are needed each time, and the pump goes out on time and adequately manned, wether or not some make it each time or not,
I am definately not saying I am against the use of lights, Im sorry if I didnt explain my self properly, the use of them in your personal circumstances in my opinion would be 100% justified, you have said the roads are busy, tourists etc, and people travelling in built up traffic, so I am assuming that you couldnt really get up to any great speed in order to cause more than an accidental bumper touch,
But, hypothetically, if you lived "a distance that you, yourself regarded as being maybe too far away for comfort" (and Im not getting into the politics of the rights or wrongs of this ) I would hazzard a guess where there would be some areas of road where it would be possible to travel just that titchy bit faster! now thats what Im on about! everybody is different! YOU might not abuse your light, and only use it to make the public aware of your presence, but can you tell me that EVERYONE would act the same!
Thats the person that I would regard a "d*** H***"!
 Not someone using it like a doctor, would, I am so sorry you could think that I meant that.
I hope Ive explained myself a bit better, I was not intending to cause offence,

[Midland Retty]

Hiya Donna

No offence taken at all! I see where you are coming from.

You are right in what you were saying, and more than entitled to your opinion. Sorry if I made you think I was getting tetchy with you!

Just wanted to explain why flashly lights maybe of benefit really both in terms of cost and as a "quick fix" solution

You are also right in saying people with flashing lights might be tempted to abuse them. Trouble is some retainers abuse traffic laws anyway without flashy lights !! And they really must be hauled over the coals / prosecuted for being that irresponsible.

At the time of employment the time and distance a retained firefighter lives from the station is checked. But often of course they may have popped down to the village centre to do shopping. So its not always just a case of measuring time / distance from their residence.

The other problem is lets say you employed a firefighter 10 years ago. At that time s/he could make the station comfortably but over time due to increase in traffic its getting difficult. Lets also say the station where s/he works is poorly staffed and try they cant afford to let that firefighter go then perhaps again flashy lights would help.

In response to Mike Buckley's post Id have to say that any call the fire service  receives could be "persons reported" - Statistically we are fotunately seeing less deaths and injuries but a retained firefighter wouldn't know the nature of the call until responding to station - so cant ever assume its not life threatening.

Also as you say incidents esculate - fire spread jeopardises property and life of course. So the emotional side doesn't figure into this the retained firefighter nor the full time firefighter never really knows what they will come across until they get there!

Try explaining to the mother of a child who got killed in a house fire because the brigade couldnt respond quickly enough!

Not a nice scenario!

[fireftrm]

I ask again - please, those of you who have the problems, please provide reliable statisitcs of the number of times that the appliance has failed to respond during the allocated time due entirely to the slow attendance of RDS staff caused by traffic problems. Then we may have a chance to examine, through a risk assessment based approach, the options to prevent reoccurence .

[Mike Buckley]

Midland Retty, Yes I agree every fire call is a potential persons reported and the best answer is a wholetime station on every street corner. I agree it is not nice to explain to a mother but conversely try to explain to the average person why their council tax/income tax has just gone through the roof to pay for the extra fire cover when they have never needed to call the fire brigade.

I am afraid the whole thing still comes down to balancing the risks especially the political ones and there every life has a value whether we like it or not and the cost of a station and its crew is balanced against the monetary value of the life it may save. The worst thing is a child is emotive but not very valuable to the state.

I don't like it but thats the way the state thinks.

[Midland Retty]

I ask again - please, those of you who have the problems, please provide reliable statisitcs of the number of times that the appliance has failed to respond during the allocated time due entirely to the slow attendance of RDS staff caused by traffic problems. Then we may have a chance to examine, through a risk assessment based approach, the options to prevent reoccurence .

What would you suggest as options / solutions / risk bassed approach then?

If you really want me to sit here and work out all the times Ive / we've been delayed then I shall. But we are looking at this as a generic problem I think we've given plenty of scenarios now (see my lengthy post above for example)

In answer to Mike's comments - good point well made !

As you say money is king and alas not much we can do about that!

So a balance is required.

On the whole alot of this will be down to the FRA to resolve but some of it boils down to local and national government imputus too.

[Mike Buckley]

Midland Retty, I think the statistics freftrm is asking for could be gathered if the records are there. If you do have the records, the first question is when has the appliance turned out with a crew but the time has been longer than the allocated time. Second question how many of these turnouts happened during traffic problem times ie weekdays during the work time and local busy times. Then do a percentage to compare the failed turnouts from the busy times and the non busy times. This should give a good idea the problem.

The more responses from different stations that are collected together the stronger the argument.

[fireftrm]

Mike - exactly. The information should be recorded by the FRS for statistical purposes anyway (of appliances not mobile within the time determined). The station should have records of the problems encountered, good management techinque. If you are relying on stories told by Ffs then the case is somewhat weak. Evidence is required and thent he assessement of how best to deal with the problem can be determined. There can be no 'one size fits all' , like the green light, for exapmple, as the problems each station may have will present different solutions.

As an example a station that came under my management (and we had another similar one in a different areea of the FRS - but there the answewr was to pay staff to cover) was likley to suffer excessive delays in Ff response due to temporary traffic lights on the route to the station. The risk assessment showed that it was likley that the appliance would be delayed in turning out. So what did I do - provide warnings for all RDS cars? No. I relocated the applaince to a supermarket car park during the busy traffic periods and had an RDS member at the appliance. This was for four hours per day, for two weeks. Now that was a short term answer, but had the lights been permanent I would have been looking at a more permanent solution, such as locating the appliance at a different point accessible without passing through the busy traffic area - either permanently, or duringt he busy periods - such as a garage on an estate th eother side of the traffic problem. The station would then have been used for training, admin and normal traffic condition response. That is what the managers shouldbe doing.
rks

[Zex]

Heres my twopence worth I am a retained fire fighter on a " 1 pump" station and while I do use my car in order to attend a shout I dont feel that I should be given any special flashing lights in order to get there quicker. Although it can some times be a little frustrating the pump does leave with at least 4 riders within 5 mins even if I am not one of them!
This afternoon I noticed that while I was out shopping that the main road was controlled by temp traffic lights and I made a mental note to use my push bike if we got a shout. Any flashing lights probably wouldnt get me there any quicker because the rest of the traffic would simply not have room to let me through.