INDUSTRIAL FIRE TEAMS

[Guest]

Are there no persons from the Petro-Chemical or Nuclear industry who would like to start something in this section? You work in a hazardous environment, how about sharing some view and experiences with us?

He’s one I’d like to know, what is it like working in Industrial fire fighting over local authority. Is your training similar to ours, where do you go for training, how often do you do re-certification etc. It must be thirty years since Flixborough; what about that large oil tank fire in the 80’s? Anyone still serving or retired, got any views on how the Industrial teams involved, handled these jobs?

[Guest]

We are the forgotten, under-funded poor relation in fire fighting. The government and HSE, never include us in any thinking on up grading work practices, why?

Our training courses are often short, and limited to the bare minimum. This is not due to training establishments, not being able to deliver, because the government don’t set standards. So the companies ask the courses to be short and infrequent.

Refresher courses can be as much as 5 years apart, depending on the company you work for. More and more industries are moving over to using so called part time emergency responders from the work force. Multi-national companies, who want to save a few hundred thousand and the first thing to get looked at for the chop, are the sites full time emergency service.

The accounts mind:

“I know how to save money, get rid of the whole time fire dept, send some of the work force on a one week fire course” Call them an emergency response set up and we are covered. Pay them a minor retaining fee and if able to do so, they can train together a few times a year”

The people recruited, do so with the best intentions, and may even have to volunteer to secure their job. Invariably, they always are useless. If they turned the tables and we took over their work area. Would any company say you are competent with a week’s course?  

I know from experience, these teams are dangerous, because they think they know what their doing. If you took anyone of them aside and gave them practical or written tests, you would be horrified at their lack of job knowledge.  It is common sense, if people are not properly trained and competent they are unsafe.

It sickens me to know we are being eroded and yet nobody in any sort of position of authority is monitoring and finding out why this is going on. The law of averages will catch up, and eventually a fire-incident will occur and these so-called emergency responders will get themselves or those they are there to assist, seriously injured or even killed.

You can hear the enquiry, detailing the inept approach of the company involved in their attitude towards a competent, emergency response department. When are the government and HSE you going to wake up and get to grips with this?

Does this answer your question?

[fireftrm]

Interesting - the 'government don't set the standards' - well why should they?

The standards for ALL persons working in a fire service are already there! The latest National Occupational Standards were issued in August 2001 and were written by the fire service, including industry (for example BNFL were involved). These standards are available for any fire service to use - it is (presumably) your employers that are chosing not to?

Invovle your representative bodies in getting these standards (or the parts of them that apply to your workplace - such as Educate and Inform your Community on safety may not be suitable?) used for your service!

[Guest]

It fine what you say about occupational standards, but a small industrial setup won’t have a training dept such as a county fire brigade. If there lucky, they’ll have one or two guys in the dept whom struggle to keep on top of the day to day issues. If they are all volunteers from inside the company whom respond to pager or a phone call, how likely are they to know or have time for IPDS or anything else? You need to walk a mile in another mans shoes to understand his problems.

[fireftrm]

As I said:

These standards are available for any fire service to use - it is (presumably) your employers that are chosing not to?

Invovle your representative bodies in getting these standards (or the parts of them that apply to your workplace - such as Educate and Inform your Community on safety may not be suitable?) used for your service!

I do understand your problem, but it is not for the external agencies to help you now that the standards work has been done! It is for you to help yourself and fight your corner inside your organisation with your representative body. If that does not work - well I am sorry but there is really nothing anyone else can do. I am not being negative but that is the situation.

Sometimes you have to walk on your own feet to get anywhere, there is not always a carry chair.

[Guest]

When you read something does it not sink in? Obviously you don’t wear shoes you just walk on water, over anyone who gets in your way. It’s always the fault of the person doing the complaining is it? For not standing up like a real man!

I wish I worked in your black & white, simple little world; no union protection here my sympathetic chum!

[Guest]

Gents why argue, yes Occupational fire teams, have failings, are you telling me, Local authority, Airport, or Military don’t? I work in industry, we are a little behind in some areas but we are making up good ground.

I have seen the IPDS documentation; we don’t have a dedicated training department true; we maybe a little behind in taking on this next stage of development, but we’ll get there. Accept we work in different environments, with some different rules. We still potentially face the same uncertainties and dangers and therefore we should both appreciate the others points of view.

[fireftrm]

Guest

I am really sorry that i have appeared to be so negative, it is mnot my fault that you work for an employer who does not take their staff seriously. I am truly sorry. However it is not for the rest of us to sort out your problems, we will help in any way we can. If the problem was so serious that the HSE felt they could intervene I am sure they would. If your employer was so big that it might be such a concern perhaps you might have union recognition? Perhaps you could shed som elight on your particualr works fire service and the industry and I may be more able to make suggestions. Out of interest if you get some union members then your employer cannot refuse to recognise them..............

I walk on people? No I walk with them, but only when they are prepared to stand up and walk themselves.

 Complain? Yes. Whinge without accepting reality? No.

[Peter How]

Hi
May I let you know that the COMAH industries who have most of the hi -hazard Emergency response teams have their own network at www.jioff.com. This is now becoming a world wide network [I think I saw Colin Todd join the other day!]

The networking side is by subscription only, via the Company Fire officer or Safety / Emergency planning manager.
It is tackling the very real issues facing Major Hazard sites, sharing expertise and fire fighting techniques.
it has just recently launched competancy based training packages for Industrial firefighters and is encouraging their adoption by companies.
Joiff have bigger appliances than most!!
We are trying!
Peter

[Peter How]

Sorree typo   www.joiff.com

[Guest]

I partially agree with some of the comments made on this messageboard about the competence of industrial firefighters.

I am one myself and would never pretend to be as highly qualified or knowledgeable as Proffesional firefighters.

I do resent some remarks made about us being "dangerous" however.

I can assure you that our fire team take firefighting very seriously, and safety is our paramount prioity.

SOmetimes I do feel we are mocked by those who call themselves proffesional firefighters, their attitude has always seemed to be that we are "pretenders", "have a go hero's" and such.
We never pretend to be what wwe are not we are there just to try and help and negativity doesn t help things

Yes there should be national standards fire industrial brigades YES there should be greater imput from management but this is private industry where money is king , and you talk about unions well i have to say theyu wont help here - it needs to be a government pushed capmaign to improve training standards for Industrial Fireifghters

[Guest]

I agree with the comments feautured in the previous message.

Where companies can afford to cut corners they will, its hard to convince top line management to fork out lots of money and time for work force to go on long expensive training courses.

It does need a governemnt agency posiibly even the fire authorty to impose the standards already drawn up.

We need all the help we can get to convince those financially motivated sceptics!!!

[Firewolf]

I also agree with many of the comments above.

As any fire safety or health and safety officer will know, trying to get the through the safety message to some people, especially higher management can fall on deaf ears. This is particularly the case when money is concerned.

How many times have you heard an employee at your institution moaning, muttering on saying things like " Why do we need fire safety training - we never have had a fire here!"

Now relate that to the Industrial Fire Brigade Scenario

Officer in Charge of Industrial Fire Brigade:

" Mr Managing Director we need to train our personell to a much better standard than they are now - our team cant operate safely we need better equipment, PPE, and firefighting training"

Mr Managing Director " Nonsense your teams are there to provide first attack firefighting only the local fire brigade will do all the dangerous stuff"

Fire Officer " But first attack firefighting carries danger with it. What if one of my men is hurt or killed?"

MD: "How much will it cost"

Fire Officer: " Not sure yet but it will be fairly expensive, we are talking thousands not hundreds"

Mr Managing Duirector " What if someone gets hurt or killed you say?...thats a bit dramatic - it wont happen - we have never had a fire here, and besides I cant commit funds for training there are far more important priorities that requires expenditure"

Fire Officer " Ok when someone is killed if you are happy telling that to the Judge then fine"

Its an all too typical scenario Im afraid.

I firmly believe it needs some sort of intervention by the government  - employers have a duty to ensure all employees are competent in their jobs and can work safely.

Trying to convince managment to do something is very difficult unless you can refer to some sort of legislation

A classic of this is as follows:-

Fire Safety / Health and Safety Officer "Mr Managing director we need to install emergency lighting in the basement"

MD: "How much will it cost"

Fire Safety Off " About £2000.000

MD (Falls off chair) "Nope! to expensive we are not having that, weve done without it this long why do we need it now?"

Fire Safety Off: "Well Im afraid all this time you've been doing without it you have been breaking the law"

MD "We've never had an inspection"

Fire Safety Off "Fine well if you want the fire authorty to instruct you it must be done then go for it , but you maybe fined and or told too close the premises until those imporvements have been made"

Its a classic scenario yet again and Im labouring the point too far now but thats my angle on this situation

Im out of here before I bore anyone else to death   :oops:

Guys you still awake :?:

GUYS?

[Guest]

Yep agree with that!

Too little funding!

[dave bev]

funding, ahhhhh

or is it cos they dont give a toss?
i say bring on the consultants, theyre always up for a laugh and a pocket filling exercise