Analogue value

[Benzerari]

Hi all;

Analogue addressable detector has analogue value and it reports it to the FAP when interogated, and that analogue value is readable to. but does conventional detector have analogue value too which is not just readable. if yes, is the decision of either normal or emergency situation made by the detector it self or by the panel? in either conventional and analogue addressable technologies?

Thank you in advance.

Benzerari

[Benzerari]

Does that mean that it is the detector who make decision of either fire, fault or normal conditions according to its analogue value? is it the same case in both technologies conventional and analogue addressable?

Thank you

Benzerari

[chris.]

Conventional devices and analogue addressable work in very different ways... A addressable device usually just reports its reading to the panel and the panel decides (you may have notices bedroom , office modes etc that allow for higher readings without generating an alarm state, one further -  discriminating algorithm technology depends on the type of panel and compatible detectors, software in the panel looks at the characteristics and comparing changes in the values being sent to the panel before doing anything)

With conventional devices, the device does the 'deciding' the panel is just looking for the end of line and fire resistor being shorted across (which the detector does)

if im wrong on anything , feel free to correct me

[Graeme]

only on the conventional detector when in place shorts out the diode in the base (if it's head removal) and when in fire condition draws a higher current than normal.

[Benzerari]

Conventional devices and analogue addressable work in very different ways... A addressable device usually just reports its reading to the panel and the panel decides (you may have notices bedroom , office modes etc that allow for higher readings without generating an alarm state, one further -  discriminating algorithm technology depends on the type of panel and compatible detectors, software in the panel looks at the characteristics and comparing changes in the values being sent to the panel before doing anything)

With conventional devices, the device does the 'deciding' the panel is just looking for the end of line and fire resistor being shorted across (which the detector does)

if im wrong on anything , feel free to correct me

Thanks Chris

Does that mean analogue addressable panel receives the reading of analogue value from analogue addressable detector and if that reading is within the fire condition tolerance it just DELAYS the fire condition to take place till it makes sure it is a genuine fire signal by using that discrimination algorithm ?    And in this case, can we say conventional system is more sensitive also prone to false alarms than analogue addressable system?

[Graeme]

yes as the detector makes the decision not the control panel.

[monkeh]

there are some older addressable panels that are slightly different.

the old zettler zpx panels use detectors with an addressable module in the base (the same detectors can be used on conventional systems).  however i think there must be some sort of monitoring of the levels, because detectors in dusty areas or beside air-con units do occasionally show for fault and need cleaning out, so maybe it's actually the other way round - they're addresable heads but can be used on conventional systems.  either way, these detectors are extremely fast to respond during tests so i'm thinking the detectors sends the fire signal to the panel rather than the panel itself deciding that it's level is high enough to generate an alarm.

[Graeme]

There are a few addressable panels still on the go that use addressable bases with conventional heads.
The base can only report,the address,fire and fault conditions and has no idea of what the condition of the detector is in.

Most popular i have seen is an addressable base with Hochiki heads.

[Benzerari]

There are a few addressable panels still on the go that use addressable bases with conventional heads.
The base can only report,the address,fire and fault conditions and has no idea of what the condition of the detector is in.

Most popular i have seen is an addressable base with Hochiki heads.

Can you tel me what versions of Hochiki detectors with addressable basis? because the only Hochiki detectors I have seen up till now are the heads that uses their current basis and in witch the heads are addressed electronically using Hochiki address machine ?

[Graeme]

The CDX range

[Benzerari]

Are analogue value's ranges well defined in British Standard?
If yes, I would like to know what are these ranges in case of:

Normal Condition;         from:     ?        to:    ?
Fault Condition;            from:     ?        to:    ?
Prealarm Condition;      from:     ?        to:    ?
Fire Condition;            from:     ?         to:    ?

etc...

Regardless of the constant values in case of MCPs or I/O units... and also regardless of the different makes of analogue addressable systems.

Any help would be appreciated

Thank you

M C Benzerari

[Wiz]

Are analogue value's ranges well defined in British Standard?
If yes, I would like to know what are these ranges in case of:

Normal Condition;         from:     ?        to:    ?
Fault Condition;            from:     ?        to:    ?
Prealarm Condition;      from:     ?        to:    ?
Fire Condition;            from:     ?         to:    ?

etc...

Regardless of the constant values in case of MCPs or I/O units... and also regardless of the different makes of analogue addressable systems.

Any help would be appreciated

Thank you

M C Benzerari

Analogue values are not defined in a British Standards. The digital numbers an addressable device generates are representations of the various conditions that that device can find itself in. These digital numbers can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from range to range. That an analogue value of 60 in Company 'A's range might represent the point that should represent a fire condition, the equivalent point in Company's 'B's range might be an analogue value, of say, 45. It is up to the control equipment to be designed to respond correctly to the various analogue values.

[Benzerari]

Are analogue value's ranges well defined in British Standard?
If yes, I would like to know what are these ranges in case of:

Normal Condition;         from:     ?        to:    ?
Fault Condition;            from:     ?        to:    ?
Prealarm Condition;      from:     ?        to:    ?
Fire Condition;            from:     ?         to:    ?

etc...

Regardless of the constant values in case of MCPs or I/O units... and also regardless of the different makes of analogue addressable systems.

Any help would be appreciated

Thank you

M C Benzerari

Analogue values are not defined in a British Standards. The digital numbers an addressable device generates are representations of the various conditions that that device can find itself in. These digital numbers can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from range to range. That an analogue value of 60 in Company 'A's range might represent the point that should represent a fire condition, the equivalent point in Company's 'B's range might be an analogue value, of say, 45. It is up to the control equipment to be designed to respond correctly to the various analogue values.

I though it must be some reference to what the analogue addressable systems are designed to respond to, for smoke detectors readings for example it must be some reference in percentage of obcusration or number of particules in a square mm:

Just as an example:

From: 1%      To: 9% ---------------> Faults condition or ( No reading received )
From: 10%    To: 40% --------------> Normal condition
From: 41%    To: 49% --------------> Prealarm condition
From: 50%    To: 55% --------------> Fire condition

etc...

Am I making sense ?

[Wiz]

Are analogue value's ranges well defined in British Standard?
If yes, I would like to know what are these ranges in case of:

Normal Condition;         from:     ?        to:    ?
Fault Condition;            from:     ?        to:    ?
Prealarm Condition;      from:     ?        to:    ?
Fire Condition;            from:     ?         to:    ?

etc...

Regardless of the constant values in case of MCPs or I/O units... and also regardless of the different makes of analogue addressable systems.

Any help would be appreciated

Thank you

M C Benzerari

Analogue values are not defined in a British Standards. The digital numbers an addressable device generates are representations of the various conditions that that device can find itself in. These digital numbers can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from range to range. That an analogue value of 60 in Company 'A's range might represent the point that should represent a fire condition, the equivalent point in Company's 'B's range might be an analogue value, of say, 45. It is up to the control equipment to be designed to respond correctly to the various analogue values.

I though it must be some reference to what the analogue addressable systems are designed respond to, for smoke detectors readings for example it must be some reference in percentage of obcusration or number of particules in a square mm:

Just as an example:

From: 1%      To: 9% ---------------> Faults condition or ( No reading received )
From: 10%    To: 40% --------------> Normal condition
From: 41%    To: 49% --------------> Prealarm condition
From: 50%    To: 55% --------------> Fire condition

etc...

Am I making sense ?

I trust the following is an answer to your question.

Apollo XP95 Optical has a nominal threshold sensitivity of 2.4% light grey smoke obscuration per metre. When it detects this it will give an analogue value of 55 which is the nominal value that the control equipment is meant to respond as a fire condition.

A similar smoke level in another manufacturer's range might, for example, return an anlogue value of, say, 32 but it's control equipment will also then respond to it as a fire condition.

I think you will find that response levels to smoke, heat etc. are determined by various Standards, for example, the Apollo XP95 ionisation specification mentions sensitivity as being to EN54 Pt 7 1984; (BS 5445 Pt 7 1984)

In respect of your original question the analogue values are not pre-determined by any Standard but by the protocol of any given manufacturer.

Just as a matter of interest, the Standard range Apollo XP95 temperature detector returns an analogue value that is exactly in line with the temperature it is sensing in degrees centigrade. therefore an analogue value of 20 is 20C and 55 (the Apollo XP95 alarm value) is 55C.

 Apollo also make a high range heat detector with a 90C operating threshold, but 90C then equates to the analogue value of 55 required for a fire condition in their protocol.

[Benzerari]

Analogue values are not defined in a British Standards. The digital numbers an addressable device generates are representations of the various conditions that that device can find itself in. These digital numbers can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, and from range to range. That an analogue value of 60 in Company 'A's range might represent the point that should represent a fire condition, the equivalent point in Company's 'B's range might be an analogue value, of say, 45. It is up to the control equipment to be designed to respond correctly to the various analogue values.

I though it must be some reference to what the analogue addressable systems are designed respond to, for smoke detectors readings for example it must be some reference in percentage of obcusration or number of particules in a square mm:

Just as an example:

From: 1%      To: 9% ---------------> Faults condition or ( No reading received )
From: 10%    To: 40% --------------> Normal condition
From: 41%    To: 49% --------------> Prealarm condition
From: 50%    To: 55% --------------> Fire condition

etc...

Am I making sense ?

I trust the following is an answer to your question.

Apollo XP95 Optical has a nominal threshold sensitivity of 2.4% light grey smoke obscuration per metre. When it detects this it will give an analogue value of 55 which is the nominal value that the control equipment is meant to respond as a fire condition.

A similar smoke level in another manufacturer's range might, for example, return an anlogue value of, say, 32 but it's control equipment will also then respond to it as a fire condition.

I think you will find that response levels to smoke, heat etc. are determined by various Standards, for example, the Apollo XP95 ionisation specification mentions sensitivity as being to EN54 Pt 7 1984; (BS 5445 Pt 7 1984)

In respect of your original question the analogue values are not pre-determined by any Standard but by the protocol of any given manufacturer.

Just as a matter of interest, the Standard range Apollo XP95 temperature detector returns an analogue value that is exactly in line with the temperature it is sensing in degrees centigrade. therefore an analogue value of 20 is 20C and 55 (the Apollo XP95 alarm value) is 55C.

 Apollo also make a high range heat detector with a 90C operating threshold, but 90C then equates to the analogue value of 55 required for a fire condition in their protocol.

Thanks Wiz for these details, any more details would be appreciated

Thank you