transfer of non LA Firefighters into a LA fire service

[geordie878]

I wrote this on another forum but I am interested to hear people's view on this, in respect of modernisation and the appointment of civvies into roles within the fire & rescue service why do we overlook serving firefighters from non local authority brigades for transfers? Just for the record I am a serving wholetime firefighter.

"I know a couple of lads that were RAF firefighters that have transfered across, I feel sorry for the lads & lasses in the the RAF Fire Brigade as I have read a few times on here that certain people dont believe their training is up to scratch etc... I have to say that they do the same training in respect of home office standards, FS training manual, NVQ, operational procedures etc.. If I were a Chief fire officer I would not hesitate to transfer in one of these firefighters as i would do any other.

If the argument for not bringing them in is experience then why do recruit people off the street? these firefighters will have to attend development centres to assess their levels and get whatver training they may or may not require just as if I went from one brigade to another.

We appoint civvies with no fire service experiance in deputy chief fire officer jobs but we dont appoint firefighters with the same training standards!? it just doesn't make any sense to me.

On the forces thing I would rather have an ex squaddie on my watch with discipline and an attitude for work any day. If they have fire service experiance then why not transfer them in and well done to the brigades that do it already. Lets be honest brothers and sisters the rank to role is changing our service and in the not to distant future Firefighters from all areas of this job (Forces / airport / industry etc..) will be transfering directly across and probably us going the other way if we wanted (maybe not the forces though!  )

If they prove they have the training etc... I for one will welcome them in.

I await the backlash.... "

[Pip]

the wheels are turning but slowly.there are so many things trying to be 'modernised' at the same time, there is not enough time/money to do it all.What you suggest will probably come one day.

[Cut Fire Service Pay]

I couldn't agree more, I went from LAFB to DFS as I was fed up with the new grind of rank to role and IPDS/IRMP & the nonsense that are ADCs. The lads I work with are of the same and in some cases better quality than those in LAFB. The RAF & DFS lads do get alot of grief on this forum and very unjustly. I've been to the training school at Manston and thought the fire training was superb.

Like you say they do the same training to the same home office standards. Its quite nice to work with people that have discipline and a genuine interest in the work they do rather than how good they look in the uniform. id employ one any day. I think alot of Ffs forget that there are more brigades out there than just local authority. In my experience I have found that London FB are one of the worst for this, they openly refuse to accept anyone from non-LAFB or retained. This is the brigade that leads the way on diversity and equality (when it suits).

The only way to get experience is to do the job, these boys and girls have been doing the job, got the NVQ but still get treated unfairly.

[steve-o]

Hi all just wanted to say a big thank you for the support on this post, i am currently a RAF firefighter and your right we do get a lot of people putting our trade down, we are all very well trained and the course at MODFSCTE Manston is a brilliant course i fully enjoyed it, i am leaving this job soon but only because of the RAF side of this job want to have more of a stable life but want to carry on being a firefighter and will be applying for local authority very soon do you think i will get a harder time going through the selection process than a civvy with no experience as a firefighter.

[firefightercw1]

hi, im a RAF Firefighter too, leaving very soon and have applied local and dfs. It would be great to get a transfer over staright over, i've even heard of someone that has done it before. its called an Inter Service Transfer,i've tried to find out about it but i couldnt find any details, i know the lad transferred from RAF to Cambridge. anyone with any details pls post them. where you at Steve O??

[firefightercw1]

We RAF firefighters have abig gamble i think, it takes a year to leave RAF, and you gotta line it up with Local authoritys recruitment or dfs, and thats if you get in. its a big risk coming out with no job, thats why so many RAF lads are scared to leave the RAF cos they havent got a gaurenteed job to fall into. im risking leaving the air force, but have timed it well when the recruitment campaign is under way. But if i dont get one of these jobs then I have to stay in RAF because i cant afford to come out on a normal wage doing a normal job. im sure Steve O will agree.

[steve-o]

hi mate yeah i do agree it is a big gamble but i am going to give it my best shot, i am at benson where you at?

[Midland Retty]

Just to add to the debate

I have a mate who transferred directly into the DFS from the RAF

I think Im right in saying that the training in both the RAF and DFS is identical (ie they use the same training centre, tutors, standards etc etc)? And basically my friend was able to argue the toss successfully and get transfered.

It seems ludicrous to me then that there are so many well trained commited people in the RAF leaving in droves and their expertise is not being used either by DFRS or LAFRS.

We all know that training can differ between LA Fire Service to LA Fire Service, but the DFS and RAF are both proffesional and highly trained brigades. So why are they always thought of as second class by some?

If I transferred brigades i'd probably need some additional training - might be different BA sets are used for example or appliances and operational procedures may differ etc etc... in other words I know the bread and butter stuff, I know how to get a pump to work, but it may be the controls are different on their fire appliances so its the local procedures and policies and practices just to get familair with.

So I dont see why then that RAF / DFS lads / lassies cant transfer directly over

[firefightercw1]

steve O im at Coningsby mate, i know you dont have to do full training course from RAF to DFS, maybe conversion on BA's of course, few places have different search procedures too

[docfin]

Chaps, speaking as a LAFRS WM I can tell you that the recruiting systems used by LA Fire and Rescue Services is as much of a mystery to us as it is to you. I once sat with another three WM trainers who had all recently passed ADCs, and we tried to help someone fill out their application form for a place in a FRS. Despite our combined efforts the guy still got a knock back despite being in possession of some really good quals and experience. Now you may say that we just did the form wrong (but I doubt it) or you may be more cynical and say the system is just totaly crap (to put it technically) and geared to fitting profiles rather than finding good recruits. The logic of recruiting directly from bodies such as the DFS etc is in my opinion beyond debate. There has to be a route open for those outside the Fire and Rescue community to enter or we tend to miss out on talent, but the economics of absorbing already competent fire fighters and puting them through a reasonably simple conversion course is obvious. I have trained ex RAF pers and found them to be of excellent callibre and would have no probs doing so again although why they still have to complete a full basic recruit course is beyond me. I can only assume that the problems you are having are more to do with snobbery and turf protection than any real practical issues. If it were easy to move across at the end of your MOD service then more people would want to do so than they could train replacements for. I suspect the same reasoning is stopping the transfer of retained Ffs to wholetime.

[firefightercw1]

Good Response. the RAF Fire and Rescue service has Brigade Status so i dont see why we cant just do some simple conversion course?? thinks it is snobs and money men talking!!

[Dinnertime Dave]

As an ex RAF firefighter I think we need to be careful here, whilst I acknowledge that I left the RAF in `89 and what I learnt gave me an advantage on joining the LAFRS. the simple fact is - during my first night shift I saw more flames than in 7 years in the mob. a simple conversion course wouldn`t be sufficient.

The amount of practical experience gained in 7 years was minimal. However, having said all of that, as a watch Manager I would be more than happy to have an Ex RAF firefighter on my watch
 
Good luck to any of you just leaving and applying to join LAFRS you won`t regrete it. Despite the changes still the best job in the world.

[firefightercw1]

Cheers Dave, i realise the work load differnece, and as you know the lack of actuals in the RAF is disapointing and job satisfaction is very poor.

[docfin]

Q. How much practical experience does a newly qualified Fire Fighter have on his first night on shift?
I would not advocate that anyone should be treated as if they are competent unless they can show evidence to this effect. I spent the first six months of my career at a very quiet station which meant I had only one shout (grass no less) in all that time. Happily I then went to a very busy station and got loads of practical experience and learned the trade. However are we saying that this lack of "Flames" mean I should not have been allowed to move. Remember we are not talking about assuming anything about the practical experience of those transfering but more the benifits to be had from the amount of training they have already done which really should count for something. Dave, I accept your point about the need to ensure that those moving accross are suitably qualified but with the greatest of respect how much practical experience they have is irrelevant if you are looking for probationary Fire Fighters.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Regarding recruitment who knows how it works, clearly when you get down to the last 50 at interview you could probably choose anyone, so if you fall down at this stage don’t take it personally. Get up and try again.

For those trying I’ve found this that may be useful, gives an insight into the national tests etc.

http://www.staffordshirefire.gov.uk/ffapp.htm