Intumescent Strips andf Cold Smoke Seals

[Midland Retty]

Here's what I think is an intresting little situation that has arisen...

A client of mine has questionned a local fire officer's requirements to have smoke seals / strips fitted to any fire door leading onto a staircase. The property in question i a RES CARE home.

The client already has FD 30S on all bedrooms, but the RRO guides do not explicitly pescribe where smoke seals / strips should be fitted - and this is the client's argument - he has l;ooked at the guides and can't find any reference stating where seals / strips should be fitted.

Neither can I. Dont get me wrong - I think the client should fit the seals and strips, but he has got a point about the guide not stating anything about this issue.

What are your thoughts on this - with a good rebated door are strips and seals really needed?

[Pip]

the resi care guides says those doors should resist the passage of heat and smoke (p73)-I assume the question is whether the fire officer thinks that to do that requires strips and seals instead of I presume 25mmm rebates that are there at present.In this instance, I would tend to agree with the Fire officers reasoning that it is more important in a sleeping risk where there are old and vulnerable people where any smoke inhalation is likely to have a greater effect than on their health.

[Peter Wilkinson]

Table B1 of Approved Document B is a good guidance document relating to which doors require cold smoke seals.

[Pip]

Table B1 of Approved Document B is a good guidance document relating to which doors require cold smoke seals.

yes, but for new build ,not existing.Its a balance of trying to bring up old standards to current-how far can you require some one to go?Its all down to risk assessment and opinion!Of course the F.O. could serve enfocement, and the RP challenge it.

[wee brian]

I'm with pip on this. It would be unreasonable to upgrade every building in the country evry time the building regs changed.

Perhaps if the doors were particularly badly fitted it might be resonable to fit smoke seals to improve things. Perhaps next time the doors are replaced or decorated but its certainly not worthy of enforcement.

[Mike Buckley]

Also bear in mind the discussion held elsewhere on this forum re full evacuation v defend in place.  I would tend to say that if all the residents can be evacuated within an acceptable time (2-3 minutes) then the current precautions would be reasonable. However if the plan is for the residents to stay in their rooms (defend in place, phased horizontal evac) then you will need all the smoke stopping etc. you can get.

The question comes down to risk assessment for you and for the client the choice of spending money on the smoke stopping or on additional staff to ensure that all the residents can be evacuated. (Any guesses which would be cheaper?)

[jasper]

I would always recommend an upgrade as I consider this type of staircase to be 'protected' ; there are loads of companies out there selling strips/seals very cheaply and all it would take is a decent joiner to router out the doors which is not a considerable cost

[Peter Wilkinson]

I seem to remember that the original question was about the client not being able to find any guidance regarding which situations required cold smoke seals to be fitted.  Surely the Approved Document supporting the current Building Regulations provides the 'best-practice' guidance.  It is then a process of risk assessment to argue that any exemplar solution is too onerous for individual situations, but we are unaware of these exact  circumstances.

In response to the other element of the original question, haven't we already had debates on cold smoke seals versus 25mm door stops elsewhere on this forum?

[Pip]

I seem to remember that the original question was about the client not being able to find any guidance regarding which situations required cold smoke seals to be fitted.  Surely the Approved Document supporting the current Building Regulations provides the 'best-practice' guidance.  It is then a process of risk assessment to argue that any exemplar solution is too onerous for individual situations, but we are unaware of these exact  circumstances.

In response to the other element of the original question, haven't we already had debates on cold smoke seals versus 25mm door stops elsewhere on this forum?

I sympathise with what you are saying- it is one set of guidance to aspire to, but a lot would argue about 'best practice'-yes for new build in general , but not necerssarily for existing-otherwise the DCLG need not have written all those new guides( which the original question referred to).It might be desirable to bring everywhere up to current standards, but as wee Brian pointed out, it would be unreasonable to expect everybody to upgrade on each renewal of B.Regs or British standard.In most cases 'old' standards are perfectly acceptable because they still function, but in some areas, for instance cold smoke seals/rebates, the adequacy of that functionality has been bought into doubt/question through real fire experiences, ie up at Rosebank-although yet to hear full report.

[kurnal]

We confuse ourselves by considering smoke seals as an isolated factor. They are just part of a bigger picture, that of the fire door set.
All has been covered at length on these forums before- when and why fire door seals appeared on the scene, the strengths and weaknesses of 25mm rebates, the changes to the BS476 test incorporating a positive pressure gradient etc.

An old 25mm rebated  doorset  in good condition that remains an excellent fit in the frame should still be fit for the purpose intended. It should not need to be fitted with seals  "just to bring it up to current standards" . We dont know for sure how much of a benefit the additional seals would provide for that door.

It comes back to a common sense perception that  a door with correctly fitted smoke seals  is more likely to contain smoke spread than the same door without seals- ie they can only improve things further. So if the risk assessment  indicates a need for additional risk control measures - for example extended evacuation times, fitting smoke seals may be justified.

[Midland Retty]

In response to the other element of the original question, haven't we already had debates on cold smoke seals versus 25mm door stops elsewhere on this forum?

Two things there really Peter...

Firstly I apologise If I'm going over old ground already covered but I'm fairly new here and whilst I did trawl over past topics in this forum coudln't find anything regarding this subject. Perhaps I missed it .

Secondly if Approved Document should be used why is it:-

a) not mentioned as a referral document in the RRO guide to RESCARE specifically for this issue?

and

b) Why have the RRO guide at all?

The RRO is supposed to ring-fence all previous existing legislation and put it under one heading.  

Im not saying you are wrong Peter Im merely pointing out that the punters out there don't know where to go for guidance or best practice advice.

The Fire Authorties are telling the public they must take ownership of fire safety but lets be honest whilst I welcome that to some degree a lot of people want to be compliant but just don't have the first clue about going about it!.

[Pip]

DCLG resi care guide-for existing premise
AD B- for new unless it directs you else where for new builds eg new AD B will direct you to BB100 for new schools.
However, its the 'regulations' you have to satisfy in Both the B.Regs and the Fire Safety Order-they tell you what you have to achieve, but not how to achieve it.The guides they publish are ways of how they think you can achieve the B.Regs  and F.S.O.if you apply the guidance within them.If you can prove that it is safe and works, you might get the BCO/AI/FSO to approve it, even if it is not in the 'guides'

[jokar]

A fire door set is a fire door set is a fire door set.  Whilst it is good practice to upgrade or recommned an upgrade to existing doors there is no requirement anywhere to do so.  A Fire Risk Assessment should consider the premises as they are including the preventive and protective measures in place and consider the need for additional measures or not dependent on the premises, their use and the occupants safety.  I agree with post 12 from Pip, compliance is with the legislation not any guidance that is attached to it or issued for it.

[Peter Wilkinson]

Mmmm.

Let's go back to what I said originally- ADB provides GUIDANCE as to where cold smoke seals are appropriate.  It’s the only place I know where such guidance exists which is why I mentioned it.  And this could well be where the Fire Officer got his steer from.

The RRO Guides are quite often thin on hard-and-fast rules, and rightly so.  All existing buildings are different and that’s where the assessment of risk comes in.  It seems as though the Fire Officer has assessed the building and feels that it warrants high standards of fire/smoke separation such as that described in ADB.

Sorry if my post added to your confusion, Midland Retty!  Have a read of this little lot http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=1326

You make an excellent point though, Pip in your last post.  No-one is obliged to comply with mere guidance, so long as you can prove equivalent levels of safety.  Perhaps this situation would benefit from a fire engineering study to quantify the risk by considering some fire scenarios and also an evacuation analysis to understand fully when the stairs might be used.  If a convincing argument can be tabled, supported by robust
computational analysis, then I’m sure the Fire Officer would be open-minded.

[Midland Retty]

mmmm

Lets also go back to what I said...

What guide should the punter use?

Surely Approved Doc B should be used for new premises only? Existing premises can't surely be allowed the standards Approved Document B allows for due to the fact the building may not have been built to modern standards.

So What for Exisiting premises? Well it leaves the RRO guides. WHich are very woolley.

Can you see where I'm coming from?

The RRO was designed so that people couldn't cherry pick the best bits from differing standards etc. I.e; it's supposed to be a "one size fits all" bit of legislation.

So again we ask ourselves the age old question - what do we use for guidance? RRO guides / Approved Document B? both are guides only - both probably give similar advice or atleast equivalent standards but do people (ie the punters out there) know they can refer to either document?

Therein lies the problem.