Author Topic: Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?  (Read 20686 times)

Offline PhilB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« on: February 11, 2007, 11:02:59 AM »
We all know that the responsible must carry out a fire risk assessment and also must appoint competent persons to assist him to comply with the Fire Safety Order.

There are many fire risk assessment methods, templates etc available, some better than others but all of them are useless and possibly dangerous if not completed by a competent person.

I am increasingly finding risk assessments carried out using acceptable formats, including PAS79 that are clearly not suitable & sufficient because the assessor was not competent. Not that I'm trying to upset my dear friend Colllin Tod....his PAS clearly states that only competent persons should use it.

Many organisations are using the Health and Safety manager to carry out this specialist role....they may be competent if they have the necessary skills, knowledge, experience or other qualities but I have found many who are not.

A fire risk assessment is a totally different animal from a general risk assessment. The assessor needs to understand fire development, building performance and human behaviour. Many organisations send nominated employees on one or two day courses and then deem them competent to assess very complex buildings.

Of course the level of competence should be proportional to the risk and complexity of the building. A simple building may be assessed by the responsible person with no assistance.

Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2007, 11:53:22 AM »
Theres no way round this other than an agreed qualification.  Although this may be too costly for UK PLC.

I think I am competent, I expect you do too. But some others may disagree.

Offline John Webb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2007, 01:12:26 PM »
Minor point - the Responsible Person only has to see that a Fire Risk Assessment is carried out by a competent person, the RP doesn't actually have to do it themselves.

It is, of course, the decision of the RP as to whether or not they themselves are competent to carry out the FRA - and how many RPs are competent to make that decision? Or will many find themselves being appointed and compelled by their company to do the FRA even if they know they are not competent enough - that's what worries me the most.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline PhilB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2007, 01:23:26 PM »
Actually John the Order says the responsible person must carry out a suitable a sufficient...no one else......... "must" confers a statutory duty on the RP only.

But yes they could appoint a competent person to assist them and should of course in many cases.

I do share your concerns that the problem is that many persons do not recognise when they are not competent to carry out the task.

Offline stevew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
    • http://firesureuk.co.ok
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2007, 08:25:48 PM »
Unless this matter is sorted I can only see standards deteriorating to dangerous levels.

A start would be for fire authorities to get off the fence and give better guidance on:
1,   How responsibility does not automatically mean competence
2.   When a person should and should not could carry out their own RA
3.   At what point to look for professional advice, starting with high life risk premises, hotels, care premises etc
4.   What and where to look for professional advice, starting with the IFE Register of Assessors.  Those I deal with            
      currently point persons to yellow pages.  How many so called fire safety advisors have we seen opening in the  
      last 12 months offering unqualified advice?

Dont get me wrong I accept that there are competent assessors out there not on the IFE Register.  We do however have to start somewhere.  I made the decision to place myself and company assessors on the Register.  Like it or not at least the IFE have taken a step forward on behalf of the layman.

As a final note anyone had any experiences with 'competent' companies offering RA formats on the web?  Again no controls mean a minefield.

Offline John Webb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2007, 08:45:45 PM »
The RR(FS)O and the main guides all say the RP does the assessment. The Short Guide says of the RP ".... you must make sure you carry out a fire-risk assessment although you can pass this task to some other competent person.....". So the official advice seems a little at logger-heads with itself.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline Ken Taylor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2007, 01:31:55 AM »
As with general H&S risk assessments, you can delegate the task to others but this does not absolve you from the legal duty.

The issue of individual competence has also been debated within the H&S profession for many years and all sorts of people with various degrees of competence have been given the job of assessing risks.  I know that there is a serious technical content to fire risk but this can also be the case for many other workplace risks - particularly where complex plant and machinery and hazardous chemicals are involved. Ultimately someone running a business has to be responsible for doing so safely and controlling the associated risks must be part of this responsibilty. Competence is essential in all such aspects of an undertaking so inspection and enforcement are important control measures in seeking to achieve the involvement of competent persons of whatever sort are needed.

Offline jasper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 294
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2007, 09:24:11 AM »
I have a client who has a large building portfolio and they have sent managers on 1 day fire risk assessment courses thinking that this makes them qualified, I have tried to tell them otherwise but now they have spent their money on training they will not listen

terry martin

  • Guest
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2007, 12:25:39 PM »
from a frs point of view, this is a topic we have discussed and has raised concerns. we are of the view that for small companies with no significant hazards an employee within that company would likely be 'competent' to carry out a RA. and would advise as such.

 the problem with large companies with complex buildings or processes nominating 'in their opinion' a competent person is that they don't fully understand the compex nature of fire and in these circumstances we would challenge the 'competence' of the person.

 I think this would be reasonably easy to establish in respect that if they failed to address the key issues within the RA for the workplace and failed to put in place adequate/appropriate control measures,  that, in my opinion would demonstrate (and would in itself be evidence) to me that they where not competent, i would then instruct them to address the deficiencies within the RA. i would also recommend that they need to seek professional advice.

the last point to make is there are a lot of so called assessors out there. who are unquallified and incompetent. ( i'm sure the real assessors out there will not take offence)
 i would deal with this in equal measure and would instruct the RP to seek alternative advice.

Offline afterburner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2007, 02:49:57 PM »
Perhaps the Enforcing Authorities should start taking action against companies / RP's who present a fire risk assessment which is, in the opinion of the Authority, 'incompetent' and therefore not valid. The action would be failing to carry out the statutory duty. Until legal process starts underlining what is a competently completed fire risk assessment, the Authorities are somewhat complicit in alowing the incompetent to prosper.

messy

  • Guest
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2007, 07:11:45 PM »
No doubt we'll have to wait until one or more major fires (with mass fatalities) caused by a irresponsible person compliling a crap FRA, before the Govt of the day rush through 'registration' or 'licensing' - which will probably look very similar to the IFE register.

If I was a betting man, I'd put money on the type of  building(s) in which this major fire will occur will be a lower end medium/small Hotel with single staircase conditions. There's hundreds around which are only just above the acceptance level due mainly to the FPA and regular (annual) inspections by FRAs

Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2007, 09:09:11 PM »
Point of interest- the order doesnt say that the RA needs to be done by a competent person.

If you disagree - tell me where it says so

Offline PhilB

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 963
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2007, 08:15:25 AM »
Quite so Wee Brian, that was the point I was making to John. The Order says the Responsible person must do it. Article 18 requires him to appoint competent persons "to assist him in undertaking the preventive and protective measures."

So one could argue that the risk assessment process does assist him in that process so the need to appoint competent persons to do the assessment is implied.

Offline Ken Taylor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2007, 05:47:21 PM »
I suppose an incompetent employer might just manage to produce an adequate, suitable and sufficient risk assessment by chance or copying someone else - but it doesn't seem very likely!

Offline Ken Taylor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
Who are Competent to Carry Out Fire Risk Assessments?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2007, 05:51:43 PM »
I see that they have now published guidance for fire risk assessments in transport facilities:

http://www.communities.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1162114