Author Topic: Tactical Mode in Stop messages.  (Read 27903 times)

Offline toby14483

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« on: March 27, 2007, 02:03:44 AM »
This might be more at home in the control section... not sure. I guess I'll find out.

We have recently been having a bit of a set-to with our Sub over use of Tactical Modes (Oscar Offensive - Delta Defensive) during stop messages.

Our AL/FF put back a False Alarm Good Intent stop message but failed to mention that we were Offensive... Upon hearing this the Sub was less than pleased.

AL/FF promptly checked the message logs for quite a few other FA-good intent incidents, and only 1 or 2 out of 20 or 30 included it.

Anyone got any clues to who uis right/closest to the mark or ammunition to hurl at the big bad sub?

Offline kurnal

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2007, 07:54:18 AM »
Doesnt a stop for false alarm good intent mean that you are not in any firefighting mode at all- there is no fire and there is no firefighting to be done?  Dynamic risk assessment at work.  Sounds like the Watch manager trying to put someone down for the sake of it.

Offline Andy Cole

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2007, 09:28:49 AM »
Got to agree with Kurnal, Stop FAGI means there is no work being done therefore no need for a Tactical Mode!.
Stop FAGI crews at work making up equipment in Oscar Offence mode may be applicable I suppose??.

Offline toby14483

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2007, 11:21:43 PM »
Well news that came from the top, says tactical mode should be put back in all Informative messages, but the sub claims it should be put back in stop messages too.... I always thought a stop mean we were...errrrmmmm stopping....

Nice to have views on it though.

Offline wee brian

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2007, 12:55:06 PM »
How eould you know if you were offensive or defensive if you werent doing anything?

Perhaps you should say - inactive???

Offline toidi

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2007, 03:03:41 PM »
Toby

I thought that a Stop Message meant that no further resources were required and the fire is under control but not necessarily out.

With reference to a tactical mode for an AFA, it's all about justification - In Strathclyde they are taught to put back a tactical mode with each informative at all working incidents. The dilemma is that do you perceive an AFA as a working incident?
Well if the AFA has actuated because of a fire, as soon as you enter the building you are technically in a hazardous area and therefore in Offensive mode.
You could also say that you are not at a working incident if you are only looking for a fault and there is no sign of fire. I suppose that it would depend on the guidance given from each Fire and Rescue Service as to whether a tactical mode should be declared at AFA's.
Personally, I could always justify declaring an offensive mode at AFA's as I have known of a "FF's investigating" message to be sent back and the incident quickly escalated to 22 pumps and ended up a car park!

Brian - you cannot have an 'inactive mode' as a lot of my friends would declare this in relation to certain individuals at all incidents and this would cause confusion.

Offline fireftrm

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2007, 10:53:22 AM »
We pass the tactical mode in all messages, informatives and stops. It has to be int he stop as well as not every incident has an informative and the tactical mode may change. Also to Toby the Stop is EXACTLY as toidi says - it means simply we require nomore resources - stop any other resources coming, being the derivation. It DOES NOT mean we are stopping.

As toidi says there is no 'inactive'. The tactical mode is a declaration of the operational mode being used, and is there as a means of recording the risk assessement that the IC has made. In an false alram situation there is no operational mode in use, the risk assessment being that for an operational incident, on identifying that there is no fire no risk controls are required and so no operational mode. So FA messages shouldn't require declaration of tactical mode. It may be that the FRS is making the mode required for all messages as part of familiarising people with their use, but it seems that adopting them when there is no mode in use like at a FA) is likely to confuse. Difficult enough making peopel aware of what transitional means, or when offensive applies when not in the building, let alone why they are using the mode declaration when none is actually being operated.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline toby14483

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2007, 06:11:10 PM »
Aaaah.... of course. I remember the Radio Message structure diagram I was given early in training now. There was a double underlined bold capitalised bit after STOP MESSAGE saying that informative, or assistance messages can still be used after this if circumstances change. My mistake on that one. Never thought about it since the initial tests and never used it so forgot.

Thanks for reminding me guys.

So what we seem to be saying is, the theory in using tactical mode in all messages is sound, but not needed in certain types of Stop....

Offline Kaiser

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 08:05:36 PM »
If the message is a "False Alarm Good Intent" I still don't see why you would need to send a tactical mode with the stop message because you are effectively inactive. There is no need to send a tactical mode because you aren't offensive mode or defensive.

Lots of brigades use stop codes these days so they don't need to repeat everything anyway.
Malo Mori Quam Foed Ari

Offline toidi

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 09:12:28 PM »
Kaiser

I might be wrong but before you know it is a false alarm, good intent you have already committed crews into a potentially hazardous area to find that out!
so before you put back a false alarm, good intent message, you are in offensive mode as you believe an AFA has actuated because of a fire?

I do agree that a stop code would solve the problem but it would not resolve the reason for sending back a tactical mode and that is  to satisfy the management of Health and safety regs  that a risk assessment has been carried out and a record has been taken of the outcome!

Offline Big A

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2007, 09:33:22 AM »
Quote from: toby14483
This might be more at home in the control section... not sure. I guess I'll find out.

We have recently been having a bit of a set-to with our Sub over use of Tactical Modes (Oscar Offensive - Delta Defensive) during stop messages.

Our AL/FF put back a False Alarm Good Intent stop message but failed to mention that we were Offensive... Upon hearing this the Sub was less than pleased.

AL/FF promptly checked the message logs for quite a few other FA-good intent incidents, and only 1 or 2 out of 20 or 30 included it.

Anyone got any clues to who uis right/closest to the mark or ammunition to hurl at the big bad sub?
Could this be one of those examples of rules being enforced by someone who doesn't really understand the purpose of them? (Knowledge without wisdom)

Peter Kay puts it like this: Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to put it in the fruit salad.

:)=)

Offline potter 2

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2007, 10:29:24 AM »
Another way of looking at it ,if your brigade insists on a mode.( we dont use mode on afd.just "no sign of fire investigating" then either a stop code or its a fire)
If you are actively searching out a possible fire,by virtue of an afd  you are being offensive.like searching a smoke filled building..-being silly about it ,if you stood outside waiting for keyholder that may be defensive till you get in.As you know mode can change during an incident subject to DRA

Offline Kaiser

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2007, 05:42:14 PM »
Quote from: toidi
Kaiser

I might be wrong but before you know it is a false alarm, good intent you have already committed crews into a potentially hazardous area to find that out!
so before you put back a false alarm, good intent message, you are in offensive mode as you believe an AFA has actuated because of a fire?

I do agree that a stop code would solve the problem but it would not resolve the reason for sending back a tactical mode and that is  to satisfy the management of Health and safety regs  that a risk assessment has been carried out and a record has been taken of the outcome!
I hear what you are saying but I personally wouldn't send a stop message until I knew for definate that it was a false alarm good intent for definate. I would send a tactical mode as part of my informative message, possibly as part of a stop message for an ongoing incident which is coming to a conclusion, but if I am sending a stop for a FAGI, then I have already determined that their is NO incident, therefore I can't be in offensive mode.
Malo Mori Quam Foed Ari

Offline toidi

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2007, 06:42:12 PM »
Kaiser

How's about attending an AFA and putting back a message " no sign of Fire FF investigating, we are in Oscar Offensive mode"
You have carried out a risk assesssment and logged it with control, which basically time-stamps it!
It is then discovered to be a false alarm so you put back the appropriate code and everyone is happy!


You're right Kaiser with what you are saying and we need to keep it simple- we have enough people trying to make the job what it isn't without us helping them!

Offline Kaiser

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Tactical Mode in Stop messages.
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2007, 05:24:40 PM »
Quote from: toidi
Kaiser

How's about attending an AFA and putting back a message " no sign of Fire FF investigating, we are in Oscar Offensive mode"
You have carried out a risk assesssment and logged it with control, which basically time-stamps it!
It is then discovered to be a false alarm so you put back the appropriate code and everyone is happy!


You're right Kaiser with what you are saying and we need to keep it simple- we have enough people trying to make the job what it isn't without us helping them!
You are proving my point for me, the message is exactly the type of thing I would send, but that is an informative message is it not.  The original point of this thread was to all about sending tactical mode on a stop message for a FAGI and not during the investigative phase, if you are still investigating you should definately not send back any message stating it is a false alarm.
 When I have 100% ascertained that it is a false alarm good intent and only then would I send a stop message stating "FAGI" but as soon as I have sent the FAGI stop message I dispose of the necessity for a tactical mode as there is nobody inside the building doing anything offensively or defensively.
Tactical mode attached to a FAGI stop message is silly, not necessary and a waste of radio air time.  In metropolitan brigades at busy periods, you would probably be ridiculed for wasting the air time on the radio if you sent "Offensive Mode" as part of a stop message for a False Alarm Good Intent
Malo Mori Quam Foed Ari