Author Topic: Tactical Mode in Stop messages. (Read 27904 times)

nearlythere · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2007, 04:01:51 PM »

Are you not in "offensive mode" to enter the building to deal with the situation. When the FAGI is ascertained then it is "defensive mode" as no action will be taken. The incident is then closed when the stop is put back so therefore there is "no mode".
The WC must have nothing else to do when he picks on this one. Can you not get him/her a colouring in book?

scotsfirey · « **Reply #16 on:** November 11, 2007, 09:45:03 PM »

In an earlier message Toidi said :

I thought that a Stop Message meant that no further resources were required and the fire is under control but not necessarily out.

With reference to a tactical mode for an AFA, it's all about justification - In Strathclyde they are taught to put back a tactical mode with each informative at all working incidents. The dilemma is that do you perceive an AFA as a working incident?
Well if the AFA has actuated because of a fire, as soon as you enter the building you are technically in a hazardous area and therefore in Offensive mode.
You could also say that you are not at a working incident if you are only looking for a fault and there is no sign of fire. I suppose that it would depend on the guidance given from each Fire and Rescue Service as to whether a tactical mode should be declared at AFA's.
Personally, I could always justify declaring an offensive mode at AFA's as I have known of a "FF's investigating" message to be sent back and the incident quickly escalated to 22 pumps and ended up a car park!

Brian - you cannot have an 'inactive mode' as a lot of my friends would declare this in relation to certain individuals at all incidents and this would cause confusion.

In Strathclyde they actaully pass a tactical mode in all messages, even AFAs, the basic pretence is that if you are the building investigating an AFA you're in the risk area where a firefighter could get injured, including simple things like falling on stairs etc and therefore you're DRA should suggest that you are in "offensive mode".

Old legend · « **Reply #17 on:** November 15, 2007, 07:56:14 AM »

Isn't strange how so much debate can be generated by what we all think is such a simple process. Does this mean that we all have a different take on DRA, the purpose of recording Tactical mode on incident logs and potentially the purpose of a 'stop' message?

Does this widespread opinion represent an erosion of knowledge and experience?

toidi · « **Reply #18 on:** November 16, 2007, 08:00:59 AM »

Old Legend

You are a bad person!

Most already know the answer but the ones who totally disagree with your comments will be the most vocal.

What was the old Shakespeare phrase "Methinks thou dost protest too much"

Mark my words!

Kaiser · « **Reply #19 on:** November 20, 2007, 08:38:25 PM »

Quote from: scotsfirey

In Strathclyde they actaully pass a tactical mode in all messages, even AFAs, the basic pretence is that if you are the building investigating an AFA you're in the risk area where a firefighter could get injured, including simple things like falling on stairs etc and therefore you're DRA should suggest that you are in "offensive mode".

If this is the way to go I might send messages in future stating "Getting off the appliance OFFENSIVE MODE" since there is a chance a might slip or trip getting down that big step on to the hard dangerous ground, especially if if the hard ground is wet and slippy.

Billy · « **Reply #20 on:** November 30, 2007, 11:07:59 AM »

Kaiser

The Management of Health and safety regs 1999 states that you must carry out a suitable and sufficient risk assessment at your place of work and the results must be logged.

Strathclyde Fire and Rescue are just trying to ensure that their crews are complying with the law as this is a legal requirement.
NO TACTICAL MODE= NO RISK ASSESSMENT=NO COMPLIANCE= NO DEFENCE!

When you are mobilised to an AFA, that becomes your place of work - it really is that simple and whether you agree or disagree, your organisation would find it almost impossible to defend you in a court of law if you never complied with Health and Safety legislation and anyone got injured.

I hope you now understand why crews in Strathclyde are putting tactical modes back at AFA's and it really is quite easy to say "crews in Oscar Offensive mode" at the end of the message.

The hardest thing we find is trying to change the culture which is the same for all Fire Services.

fireftrm · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2007, 12:40:45 PM »

Why say Oscar Offensive? Oscar is used as the phonetic for the letter O, a shortening of Offensive, as Delta for Defensive. So why say both??

Dinnertime Dave · « **Reply #22 on:** November 30, 2007, 12:51:42 PM »

Quote from: fireftrm

Why say Oscar Offensive? Oscar is used as the phonetic for the letter O, a shortening of Offensive, as Delta for Defensive. So why say both??

I would assume that at some stage offensive and defensive has been mis heard over a radio

Billy · « **Reply #23 on:** November 30, 2007, 01:00:48 PM »

Fireftrm

When the procedure was issued, it said to declare the appropriate tactical mode and as we are all aware Offensive and Defensive can sound similar, so to confirm the correct one we prefix it with Oscar or Delta.
Very simple, easy to understand with no chance of confusion and I think our radio channels will cope with an extra word in an informative message as compared to other services, don't you?

fireftrm · « **Reply #24 on:** November 30, 2007, 03:22:23 PM »

I agree using the phonetic abbreviation stops the confusion, same reason we use Oscar, Delta and Tango, but why then say the other word too?? Sure, the radio channels will cope with the words, but why use two when one will do? I suspect a lack of common sense.

Billy · « **Reply #25 on:** November 30, 2007, 04:34:39 PM »

Fireftrm

So you suspect a lack of common sense, do you?

Well we will do it our way and you can do it yours- We're happy, your happy, everyone's happy!

I am glad you are still focused on the important things in life like whether Strathclyde actually use the tactical mode instead of a phonetic abbreviation for the tactical mode and feel strongly enough to accuse the service of lacking common sense!

WHO REALLY CARES WHETHER IT IS AN ABBREVIATION OR THE ACTUAL TACTICAL MODE BECAUSE IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS IT IS NOT IMPORTANT! ( I mean it is not important to me but obviously it means a lot to you)

Andy Cole · « **Reply #26 on:** November 30, 2007, 10:32:18 PM »

Can you just read back and see if you lot sound pathetic or it's just me?, why is it so many of the sensible, valuable discussions on this site get over run with such nonsense?

The Lawman · « **Reply #27 on:** November 30, 2007, 11:02:09 PM »

Now now Andy, no need to be Oscar! :lol:

Billy · « **Reply #28 on:** November 30, 2007, 11:58:04 PM »

Hi Andy

fair comment-I totally agree, that's why I tried to explain the reason for the tactical mode and also the issues relating to the culture.

I did not want to be 'Oscar'(nice one Lawman) but sometimes you can't change other peoples pre-conceptions so the best thing to do is let other people see them for what they are.

if you want to be totally pedantic you would stress the point that declaring 'Oscar' mode is not really satisfying the Management of Health and Safety regs as Oscar is not any of the Modes used in the Incident Command System. 'Offensive mode' on the other hand is, and to avoid confusion, some services prefix it with the phonetic meaning for 'o' which is Oscar- and therefore say 'Oscar, Offensive' and ' Delta, Defensive'

'Oscar mode' personally makes me think of a Victorian era, Irish playwright
and poet who I believe was imprisoned for gross indecency! (but I suspect I just lack common sense!)

Slainge!

Andy Cole · « **Reply #29 on:** December 01, 2007, 07:27:22 PM »

Can't even believe I am entering into this but.....

We always use a prefix and the word itself ie Oscar Offensive as opposed to just the prefix ie oscar

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Author Topic: Tactical Mode in Stop messages. (Read 27904 times)