Author Topic: Backdraft  (Read 29228 times)

Offline The Lawman

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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2007, 05:48:58 PM »
That's the wildest one yet!

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2007, 06:00:55 PM »
Whats wrong with shouting Fire Brigade? By risk assessment the door would be open for a shorter time. Unless you have to translate into various languages of course. Reading from a script may help as you stand outside the open door.

I think youre winding us up. :)

Offline docfin

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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2007, 09:18:07 PM »
Pete P. Remember that BA should be treated as a "casualty centred" rescue where there may be persons reported. The idea that you might want to assess the situation "before" you start filling the room with steam and broil the object of your search, is not one which you should dismiss lightly. Remember that as you introduce your jet to the fire gas layer you will drive the neutral plane down towards the floor. This may lose you the opportunity to see under the gas layer and possibly locate a casualty or gather visual information which could help you if and when you decide to enter the compartment. The idea that you might want to have a brief look before you make any decisions is one which I would encourage provided you assess the situation carefully.

Offline The Lawman

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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2007, 09:34:46 PM »
Quote from: docfin
Pete P. Remember that BA should be treated as a "casualty centred" rescue where there may be persons reported. The idea that you might want to assess the situation "before" you start filling the room with steam and broil the object of your search, is not one which you should dismiss lightly. Remember that as you introduce your jet to the fire gas layer you will drive the neutral plane down towards the floor. This may lose you the opportunity to see under the gas layer and possibly locate a casualty or gather visual information which could help you if and when you decide to enter the compartment. The idea that you might want to have a brief look before you make any decisions is one which I would encourage provided you assess the situation carefully.
You would think that we would all be doing something similar. This is surely a very fundemental matter and not one where there should be any ambiguity!

Offline docfin

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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2007, 09:47:16 AM »
Lawman we are doing something "similar". Most of the differences are slight and as long as the procedures are carried out with regard to safety of both the person being rescued and the BA crew. If this is done then as long as you assess the situation properly there is no need to be as prescriptive as you seem to want to be. There should always be room for variations in how we do things in order to allow for local needs. As long as we are all ensuring that the way in which we approach F and B scenarios is done using the same fundamental techniques then it really is down to local training and practices.

Offline The Lawman

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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2007, 09:51:46 AM »
Cheers you make a good point and I accept that the techniques described are largely "similar."

Offline docfin

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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2007, 02:20:53 PM »
No probs. Good debate though. Makes a change from constant RRO tedia. If I have to endure much more debate on the merits of rising butts v self closers I think I will butt out, although I am sure these things are of the greatest importance to those in FP. No offence meant.

Offline Cut Fire Service Pay

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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2007, 03:46:44 PM »
It's interesting to see peoples different ideas and the variations around the brigades

Offline The Lawman

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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2007, 03:55:01 PM »
When I come to think about it there is actually a bit of variety in the methods different individuals employ on our watch due to the fact that we go for BA refreshers at different times which isn't ideal.

Offline docfin

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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2007, 08:13:19 PM »
Lawman do you go to different places for your refresher training? Does the training dept have tutor consolidation policies? In my department we found that due to a variety of backgrounds the trainers were all giving out slightly differing information re things like door opening and branch techniques. Nothing too dramatic but in the interests of consistancy we decided to nominate a lead tutor on each discipline (RTC; BA, FAB etc) and then get them to consult and then come up with a consistant policy which we should all now be applying. It helps insofar as we now have a single point of reference when we need to decide how we are going to teach stuff and it cuts down on confusion.

Midland Retty

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« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2007, 10:07:04 AM »
Quote from: docfin
Pete P. Remember that BA should be treated as a "casualty centred" rescue where there may be persons reported. The idea that you might want to assess the situation "before" you start filling the room with steam and broil the object of your search, is not one which you should dismiss lightly. Remember that as you introduce your jet to the fire gas layer you will drive the neutral plane down towards the floor. This may lose you the opportunity to see under the gas layer and possibly locate a casualty or gather visual information which could help you if and when you decide to enter the compartment. The idea that you might want to have a brief look before you make any decisions is one which I would encourage provided you assess the situation carefully.
So long as procedures are done correctly you should have very little steam generated!.

The idea with most techniques is to actually get the neutral plane higher and cool the products of combustion. If you get it wrong thats when the good old neutral plane starts to drop fast!

Its all about controlling the ammount of water that you put in.

Offline docfin

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« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2007, 07:10:19 PM »
Retty, Absolutely right, but as an instructor taking even very experienced hands through live fire wears,I can tell you that the number of times I have had to get down low on the floor quickly to avoid being steamed would surprise you. The amount of steam generated should indeed be minimal but branch operators often get a bit "trigger happy" when they see the hot stuff and can forget to think about what they are doing to anyone in the compartment. Not a serious problem during training wears but one which needs to be addressed to ensure that wearers are thinking about the effects of their actions.
Lawman, Dont mean to be patronising but have you thought about nominating an experienced hand as watch BAi (even if it is only an informal title) and getting him/her to do your research and keep the watch up to speed on procedures. I would think that your brigade has made all the necessary info available on their IT system. In my brigade those on station have in a lot of cases got tired of waiting for the brigade to get to grips with BA refreshers and are taking matters into their own hands (I am not advocating that people make stuff up localy but I can understand their frustration). To give the brigade credit we are now doing good BA refresher courses which are being well recieved but it will take time to get everyone through. I think in our case the reinstatement of Watch BAIs would be a step forward but only if they are given adequate training and support. I think a big problem is that 1/97 is too woolley and has gone too far in allowing brigades to vary procedures for local needs. It could do with describing in more detail the procedures to be followed in some areas i.e. how do you search a room, open a fire compartment door, how do you actually lay a guideline properly etc.

Offline The Lawman

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« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2007, 04:52:49 PM »
I think that would indeed be a stop forward and I will suggest it to our gaffer. I will let you know how it goes forward. Many thanks again for an excellent suggestion.

Offline Andy Cole

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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2007, 01:22:01 PM »
Quote from: docfin
how do you actually lay a guideline properly etc.
Please don't let that debate start again!!!!

Offline docfin

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« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2007, 05:25:05 PM »
Sorry, I was'nt thinking.