System healthy? and Panel healthy? should they be the same? and why?

[John Dragon]

Did the customer carry out his weekly tests?

[Benzerari]

Did the customer carry out his weekly tests?

yes

[monkeh]

Did the customer carry out his weekly tests?

yes

how did the problem not get shown up then?

[Benzerari]

Did the customer carry out his weekly tests?

yes

how did the problem not get shown up then?

Regarding the incident stated in the first thread of this topic, a genuine fire happened before the next due bell test, and that is the heart of the problem. If no fire occurred at all during the 2-3 days left, the loss of the program would be noticed during the next due bell test, and that is fairly clear.

Between day and night any thing could happen, isn't it?

Also if the on site responsible noticed a message saying 'Device Log Required' with a beeping, he would have called the engineer, would he? But unfortunately the panel was displaying ‘System Healthy’ and that is the worse thing.

[John Dragon]

"The loss of the program can be caused by many ways: competent engineer who missed out some thing by error, earth fault which can corrupt the data, loop card failed, using the internal reset button while the memory is open, and many others depending upon the makes..."

All the above will be noticed either by fault warning or by proper testing after work being carried out.

I can see where you are coming from, but I think you are going too far.

In this case had the weekly tests actually been carried out?

Regards
John.

[Benzerari]

"The loss of the program can be caused by many ways: competent engineer who missed out some thing by error, earth fault which can corrupt the data, loop card failed, using the internal reset button while the memory is open, and many others depending upon the makes..."

All the above will be noticed either by fault warning or by proper testing after work being carried out.

I can see where you are coming from, but I think you are going too far.

In this case had the weekly tests actually been carried out?

Regards
John.

Yes the incident happened between two successful weekly bell tests, and we still doing our weekly bell test too on behalf of the customer, the investigation is now going on by checking the 'Event Log' to find out the last minutes the 'Device Log' was in the panel and what caused the program to be lost. Also, I agree it could be the last  engineer's error ... and in that case he should be hanged up if you want...:O. But

My concern is more about, BLOCKING OFF the way to any sort of mistakes that could cause such incident; the program was lost while the system still displaying 'Systems Healthy', it is just further future measures, and it is not really IMPOSSIBLE to find out a cost affective way to double secure the program from being lost without any warning message left.

I am aiming to set a warning message in the panel saying i.e. 'Panel Healthy, Device Log Required' with a beeping, in which the message would not be cleared out without uploading back the 'Device Log' I do not think I am going that far...if it is for safety reason

Thanks

[Barryp]

When you buy a conventional panel, most have eol devices fitted in the panel, therefore someone could install this panel without connecting any ancillaries to it?
There is no difference between this and what you are saying about an analogue addressable panel.
Whoever installs either type must be competent to do so, and must properly test it!
It is all too common to see poorly designed/installed/tested equipment, usually by electricians who buy the cheapest kit from a wholesaler. (apologies in advance to the minority of sparkies who do a good job!!!)

this is my opinion.

the problem here is not with the equipment, but whoever was working on it before it went tits up.

you chould have checked the event log to see exactly when the devices were learnt off the system, and at the very least when there was last a successful test on it.

if it had been left in that way by an engineer, first off they should be strung up, and second they obviously put the panel in that state for a reason.  presumably if the panel did, as you say, register a fault when it had no devices in its programming, the engineer in question would have used a workaround such as wiring a single mcp up inside the panel to keep it clear of fault.


the problem in these cases isn't with the equipment, more with the people responsible for its correct operation.

I would string him up to. He must be the most useless engineer on the planet. i would sacked him in an instant.:

[Wiz]

When you buy a conventional panel, most have eol devices fitted in the panel, therefore someone could install this panel without connecting any ancillaries to it?
There is no difference between this and what you are saying about an analogue addressable panel.
Whoever installs either type must be competent to do so, and must properly test it!
It is all too common to see poorly designed/installed/tested equipment, usually by electricians who buy the cheapest kit from a wholesaler. (apologies in advance to the minority of sparkies who do a good job!!!)

this is my opinion.

the problem here is not with the equipment, but whoever was working on it before it went tits up.

you chould have checked the event log to see exactly when the devices were learnt off the system, and at the very least when there was last a successful test on it.

if it had been left in that way by an engineer, first off they should be strung up, and second they obviously put the panel in that state for a reason.  presumably if the panel did, as you say, register a fault when it had no devices in its programming, the engineer in question would have used a workaround such as wiring a single mcp up inside the panel to keep it clear of fault.


the problem in these cases isn't with the equipment, more with the people responsible for its correct operation.

I would string him up to. He must be the most useless engineer on the planet. i would sacked him in an instant.:

Due to employment laws you probably couldn't sack him. Only if you could prove that the engineer had been provided with sufficient training and the proper tools to carry out the task you asked him to AND the full written Company disciplinary procedure had been strictly adhered to, could you even begin to consider taking any action without facing an employment tribunal!
Customers who expect Companies to have employees that don't make any mistakes because they would otherwise  face instant dismissal have no idea of the 'real world' !!!!

[Graeme]

Just as much to the point, was the customer carrying out his weekly tests? If so, then the problem would have become evident instead of becoming evident in the event of a real fire.

?

not if it was the kind of weekly test i come across all the time.The user pressing the evacuate button every week for 5 seconds.

I was at a site today trying to persuade the end user to not use the evacuate button but a mcp every week in rotation.

He was not having it,even when i found half a floor not working during testing,which would have showed if he had been doing proper tests.

This half has not been working for years seemingly...

[Benzerari]

Just as much to the point, was the customer carrying out his weekly tests? If so, then the problem would have become evident instead of becoming evident in the event of a real fire.

?

Not if it was the kind of weekly test i come across all the time. The user pressing the evacuate button every week for 5 seconds.

I was at a site today trying to persuade the end user to not use the evacuate button but a MCP every week in rotation.

He was not having it, even when I found half a floor not working during testing, which would have showed if he had been doing proper tests.

This half has not been working for years seemingly...

Was the panel showing healthy in that site, despite that half of the floor was out of system, And if yes, would the last service engineer be hanged up?  :O Or

Would conventional system design be better reviewed too, to BLOCK OFF all that sort of mistakes that could occur?

Benzerari

[Graeme]

an old never maintained system which has been added to and altered by numerous "fire is a doddle" sparkies.

The area in question turned out to be a spur off a zone which had been cut out when rewiring as it would have not registered on the sparks inductance tester when he was ripping out old cables.

The sounders also had three additional end of lines with no resistors-again spurred of the sounder circuit.

I laugh when i hear the famous words "fire is easy" as it guarantees that person is not doing it correctly.

[John French]

Just a little note. If the engineer re-learnt the loop with nothing connected he must have shorted pos to pos and neg to neg in the loop connections or he would have had open circuit faults. I know with some panels you can switch off open loop polling or allocate it out, but me thinks not on an advanced elctronics panel. As Benzerari said "because the panel was healthy with itself without the rest of device. I mean not the whole fire alarm system was healthy...". If you work it out logically its very hard to be a complete donut on open protocol panels. Wrong text, wrong zone, (sounders left disabled) for most and poor cause and effect for the rest. That in my opinon is human error on plug and play systems. Its the details that get you in the end.

[Benzerari]

Just a little note. If the engineer re-learnt the loop with nothing connected he must have shorted pos to pos and neg to neg in the loop connections or he would have had open circuit faults. I know with some panels you can switch off open loop polling or allocate it out, but me thinks not on an advanced elctronics panel. As Benzerari said "because the panel was healthy with itself without the rest of device. I mean not the whole fire alarm system was healthy...". If you work it out logically its very hard to be a complete donut on open protocol panels. Wrong text, wrong zone, (sounders left disabled) for most and poor cause and effect for the rest. That in my opinon is human error on plug and play systems. Its the details that get you in the end.

Salut

'Oui, justement nule n'est parfait, a part le bon Dieu'

Analogue addressable system's 'DESIGN' as it is actually, either of open or closed protocol’s systems, is not really the final concept for ever. It must be some sort of updates some times in the standards... and then the technology provides its bests and latest... TO BLOCK OFF THE HUMAN ERRORS FROM HAPPENING…, it is NOT necessary the means of CORRECTING the previous, but probably COMPLETING what might be missing...

What is relatively perfect today may NOT be by next year...

This is just my opinion

[Benzerari]

Another system losts its program, this time is a ZETFAS analogue addressable system of ZETLER, no one touch it, when checked in side its main Control Unit which has a size of a normal door (1m * 2m), we found that one of the loop card definitely failed and probably other things too, the display shows 'Control panel in programming mode' without beeping just processor fault yellow LED illuminated.

This system is designed to show this message if there is no program uploaded yet!

Has any one else ever seen such things?

Thank you

[Graeme]

Last week a serious event happened in one of our customers sites, it was a genuine fire and the system did not trigger at all, it is an advanced 4000 (I am not blaming advanced system), fortunately there was no substantial damage in live/property, the system was displaying healthy, but when checked through View/Edit, No device was found in the loops. What ever the cause was human error ... of the last engineer who worked on or not..., why should the system not displaying 'No Device Log' instead of system healthy, because the panel was healthy with itself without the rest of device. I mean not the whole fire alarm system was healthy...

Should not be better, to be considered by BS, that first you buy an analogue addressable panel and power it up, instead of showing system healthy, it should show i.e.  'No Device Log' yet, just to make the difference between ‘Panel healthy’ without Device Log in it, and ‘System Healthy’ with the Device Log in it…
I hope I am making sense.

Thank you

M C Benzerari

hey Benz

i was working on a panel today that jogged my memory about your question.

If you wipe the memory all the devices on the loop will all show up as disablements until autolearned.

Aritech panel.