Fire alarm in cafe/B&B

[The Colonel]

Can I seek your views on the subject of the correct standard of a fire alarm system please.

Picture a village cafe/bed & breakfast, ground floor has a cafe seating maximum of 30 people with servery, kitchen with usual cookers and deepfat fryers etc and a small office/storeroom off the cafe,means of escape at least two ways. First floor owners accommodation with one letting bedroom for a max 4 persons, stairs from 1st floor exits to open air but you can enter the cafe area via a door into the toilets lobby and then through another door into cafe. There is no sepertion between cafe and kitchen. Additional letting bedroom in ground floor annexe with seperate entrance door direct to car park. Currently there are only a few single point smoke detectors around first floor and annexe bedroom.

My initial thoughts were that a BS 5839 Part 6 system would be ok with mains powered interlinked detector/sounders however the standard is aimed at domestic type premises where this property is commercial on ground floor so my thoughts turned to a BS 5839 Part 1 system which seems to be a bit over the top possibly for this type of building.

As there is no one here for me to bounce ideas off I would be grateful for forum members input or ideas.

[nearlythere]

The important issue is the protection of occupants of the bedroom from something happening in the cafe area especially when the latter is unoccupied, eg. at night.
I would go for BS5839 Pt1 L2 system.

[Dinnertime Dave]

You can`t go wrong with a Part 1 system.

But my office (somewhere in the midlands) would be happy with a Pt 6 system. we are not worried by the lack of
seperation between the cafe and kitchen if you can turn your back on fire, but would want something protecting the escape route from upstairs.  

Use Table 1 Page 55 sleeping accommodation guide - Table says Grade D LD2 or 3 However, i would recommend grade C because according to 5839 Pt 6 you can`t have break glass call points on Grade D. i`m sure sombody out there will shoot me down.

[The Colonel]

Well Dave no one has shot you down and having gone back to the standards and the sleeping guide i do tend to agree with you that a Part 6 Grade C LD2 could do the trick and taking into account findings in the risk assessment, the kitchen only operates between 9-5. As the premises are not much more than two converted cottages the thought of a Part 1 system still seems ott, however an L3 systems with additional detection in high risk areas (kitchen etc) has also been suggested from a friend.

I know which way one local fire alarm installer would go, he thinks Part 6 doesnt exist any more, how wrong.

Thanks for you views, any more out there

[Graeme]

commercial premises with a sleeping risk L2 pt 1 is normally asked for up here

[PhilB]

Could those who oppose the use of a part 6 system please explain why

[The Colonel]

A part 6 system will still provide the early warning required

[kurnal]

Nothing against a part 6 system as far as it goes but a few other questions need to go into the equation such as standard of ceilings between ground floor and first floor, the standard of the two  doors between cafe and residential which may inform the decision over  manual call points and scale of detection. I would suggest that a two wire part 1 system will be cheaper than a part 6 system by 50% once you start to factor in additional detectors and manual call points.

[Graeme]

Could those who oppose the use of a part 6 system please explain why

its not a dwelling

[AnthonyB]

Could those who oppose the use of a part 6 system please explain why

its not a dwelling

True, but British Standards are not law & surely the point of Risk Assessment is that as long as you can justify that your control suits the risk and will function as required under all reasonably likely circumstances to protect all relevant persons then it should be OK.

Yes a Pt 1 system in most non domestic circumstances, but in certain circumtances why wouldn't a pt6 system (which can BTW include call points and even a central 'mini' panel) suffice other than 'the BS says so'? - thats what is being asked

[Graeme]

Yes BS is not law but i will always stick to them in case the muck hits the fan and i was asked why the install did not meet the standards.

I am not into risk assessment,so we will all have different opinions


The mcp's on a pt 6 system are most suited to an HMO imo

[PhilB]

Wow!!! that's an interesting statement Graeme. I don't see how anyone involved in our business cannot be into risk assessment. Yes I agree that we all have different opinions but those opinions hopefully are based on common sense and professional judgement........i.e. risk assessment.

[Graeme]

what i meant is that i do not do risk assessment as an occupation.

[The Colonel]

Kurnal, I assumed that a part 6 system would be less expensive than a part 1 but then I dont deal with costings but certainly the clients would be. Will be rcommending that fire re4sitance between cafe and stairs is increased with a fire doors and that at some point the ceilings are checked. But I dont want to go over the top, the use of early warning is very important

[jokar]

All the defintions in BS 5839 part 6 are for dwellings and whilst I have no particular adverse reaction to the use of a Pt 6 system I think it should be clear what is being dealt with.  British Standards are recommendations only and because of that are subject to challenge but it would be far better if the BSI came out and stated that they accept that Part 6 can be used in commercial premises.  I would not like to be the person trying to justify part 6 to a member of the judiciary with the author of the document as an expert witness telling the judiciary that it was only meant for dometic premises.