Private Dwelling or HMO

[Chris Houston]

Still find it strange that Scotland is the only region of the UK with a declining population

Sorry to let the facts get in the way of a good story......but the 2007 The Registrar General's Review of Scotland's Population reads "For the fourth year running, Scotland's population rose in the year to June 2006 - increasing by 22,100 to 5,116,900."

http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/press/2007-news/the-rgs-review-of-scotlands-population.html

English bribing them to stay there.

Where are the payments available from, my application form must have got lost in the post.

being led to believe that all things Scottish were bathed in a golden glow. (Must be since the SNP took over)

You got that bit right

[val]

Scottish counting methods aren't very advanced...hey Jock, it must be your round!


I prefer English statistics...they would never lie.

Projected trends differ for the four countries of the UK. The decline in the population of Scotland is projected to continue, while the populations of Wales and Northern Ireland are projected to peak around 2030 and then start to fall. The population of England is still projected to be rising in forty years' time, but at a low rate of growth.
National Statistics Online

As to bribes..they get about £10,000 per person more in rate support grant. THats not surprising as half the Westminster MP's are Scottish.

[Chris Houston]

Scottish counting methods aren't very advanced...hey Jock, it must be your round!

I prefer English statistics...they would never lie.

Projected trends differ for the four countries of the UK. The decline in the population of Scotland is projected to continue, while the populations of Wales and Northern Ireland are projected to peak around 2030 and then start to fall. The population of England is still projected to be rising in forty years' time, but at a low rate of growth.
National Statistics Online

As to bribes..they get about £10,000 per person more in rate support grant. THats not surprising as half the Westminster MP's are Scottish.

Your quote is rather vaugue compared to mine, which gave the exact numbers and was written in 2007.  So I have more faith in the specifics of my source.

So what are these "rate support grants" and how might one go about applying for one?

[Big T]

the populations of Wales and Northern Ireland are projected to peak around 2030 and then start to fall.

Surely more people live in wales and NI than that?

More than 2030 people live in my illegally run HMO

[Ricardo]

I would like to seek the forums views on the following,
A fire occurred within a caravan which was parked within a private dwellings’ garden adjacent to the house.

The fire spread into the house causing considerable damage. It was ascertained by the fire crews that within the house lived an owner and son, who let out 2 rooms only, and there were also 2 caravans located adjacent to the house each housing 1 person, who were allowed to use the facilities within the house. (Bathroom, kitchen)

I am assuming that the owner has deliberately kept the figure down to 2 persons within the house to avoid the need to have an HMO license, and whatever fire safety measures that would go along with this.

There is now an argument between different departments regarding whether or not this constitutes an HMO, due to the 2 persons currently residing in the caravans using the house facilities.

Fire Service view is no, as the persons are not actually staying/nor sleeping in the house.

My questions are

1 – Due to the fact that this so called domestic house owner has taken in 2 paying “lodgers” would that not strictly speaking class this house as a “relevant premises”? And come under fire legislation both north and south of the border? And no doubt then “possibly” require the need for at least a Part 6, Grade D - LD2 fire detection system?

2 – Even if there was only 1 paying “lodger” staying in the house, would you consider that strictly speaking should also come under the terms of being a “relevant premises”? As it’s not being used as domestic premises then. ( at what point do we say it’s a relevant premises?)

3 – The caravans that are being utilized in the garden for paying residents, should they really be classed as “relevant premises” and appropriate fire safety measures taken by the owner?

Below is an extract from both the RR (FSO) & the Fire (Scotland) Act for domestic premises definitions.

RR(FSO)

“domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including any garden,
yard, garage, outhouse, or other appurtenance of such premises which is not used in common
by the occupants of more than one such dwelling);

Fire (Scotland) Act

 “domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling); but does not include premises such as are mentioned in subsection (5).

I have been advised that Under the fire safety order a domestic premises is a premises that is not shared, so a shared house would be covered by the order, but I couldn’t see that is what the definition above is actually saying. It seems to me its talking about the (bits in brackets) not being shared. Any views appreciated.

[kurnal]

Thats the big difference between the English and Scottish legislation. In England any parts in common use are not domestic premises and are subject to the Order.

In Scotland these parts even if in common use are still considered to be domestic premises. This reflects the wording in the Housing Legislation in each country, which was simply carried across to the new fire safety legislation.

[CivvyFSO]

Ricardo:

>>1 – Due to the fact that this so called domestic house owner has taken in 2 paying “lodgers” would that not strictly speaking class this house as a “relevant premises”? And come under fire legislation both north and south of the border? And no doubt then “possibly” require the need for at least a Part 6, Grade D - LD2 fire detection system?<<

Effectively the landlord lives in the premises, and if I recall correctly this exempts it from being a HMO. It is still a private dwelling, maybe not a single private dwelling, but it is still private.

As daft as it sounds, the RRO applies to the route from the caravans/house out to the public road, it also applies to the route the caravan users will use to go from their caravan to the toilet/bath/kitchen etc in the house. This is because these routes are used by the occupants of more than one dwelling. So all you can do under the RRO is to protect relevant persons from a fire in these routes.

[Ricardo]

This reflects the wording in the Housing Legislation in each country, which was simply carried across to the new fire safety legislation.

Hi Kurnal, any chance just out of interest you can direct me to where I can find this wording in your housing legsilation, this is something I never look at to be honest.

And CivvyFSO, thanks, re your quote

"Effectively the landlord lives in the premises, and if I recall correctly this exempts it from being a HMO"
Is this how it works south of the border? if the landlord lives in, then its not an HMO, my understanding up north is that the owner & family are not termed "qualifying persons" and dont count in the numbers.

I quote from Scottish Govs website

Where an “owner” of a house lives there and lets out rooms, or shares with friends, the owner is not counted as a “qualifying person", nor are any members of their family that live with them.

[CivvyFSO]

After having a quick look at the housing act, I may be talking out of my ar*e about the place not being classed as a HMO if the landlord lives on the premises.

[Big A]

After having a quick look at the housing act, I may be talking out of my ar*e about the place not being classed as a HMO if the landlord lives on the premises.

I think you may be right.

[kurnal]

This reflects the wording in the Housing Legislation in each country, which was simply carried across to the new fire safety legislation.

Hi Kurnal, any chance just out of interest you can direct me to where I can find this wording in your housing legsilation, this is something I never look at to be honest.

HMMMM sorry Ricardo I think my memory may be playing tricks on me again- domestic premises are only defined int he fire legislation- different for each country but the housing act uses the same terms to define a house, dwelling and a house in multiple occupation
Does this help at all

http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=2392

And this
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2004/ukpga_20040034_en_1

[Ricardo]

Thanks Kurnal

I now dont know whether I live in a house or a dwelling with these definitions from:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2004/uk … 40034_en_1

Meaning of “house” etc. In this Part—
“dwelling” means a building or part of a building  -   occupied or intended to be occupied as a separate dwelling;
“house”    means a building or part of a building  -   consisting of one or more dwellings;

But I think it must be a house. or a dwelling!! ( I'm sure I come under both)