Enforcement notice

[Andyp]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. My partner has just taken over a play centre with enforcement notice on. Is the enforcement notice on the the previous occupier or the company. where does she stand legally, can she say I know nothing of this notice or is she now required to act on the notice which has a cut off date of the 10th of September. She wasnt informed of the notice before of the sale & what makes it worst is it my LAFS that is enforcing the notice.

Any help would be grateful.

[val]

The notice is probably unenforceable but it would only require the FRS to re-issue it so in the end you will have to do the work. I would be considering taking legal action against the vendor or your solicitor for not identifying what may have a substantial cost implication.

Irrespective of the legal position you will have to comply eventually.

[Ken Taylor]

Whilst not knowing the substance of the notice, I would suspect that it relates to an issue or hazard that should appear in your partner's risk assessment for the playcentre and which would require the appropriate action/control measure(s) in order to operate the undertaking in accordance with the law. If this is the case and, as your partner is clearly aware of this, it would be most unwise not to take the required action and failure to do so may have serious insurance implications and possibly leave your partner open to further legal action in the event of associated loss or injury. It would seem best, therefore, to comply with the requirements as soon as reasonably practicable and then pursue the claim against the vendor and/or solicitor.

[kurnal]

The best course of action would be to contact the fire authority and tell them the circumstances. As val says the original notice would not be enforcible against yourselves, but it is likely that whatever defects were present are still there and need to be resolved. If you approach them you will be demonstrating vigilance and they are more likely to help you rather than if  you leave it until the notice expires.
What were the issues in the notice- did they relate to specific structural matters or the layout of the building, or systems such as alarms and lighting? Or was it over management issues such as the risk assessment, training and procedures?
Have you seen the free guidance documents on the government website- www.communities.gov.uk follow the link to fire and resilience and then fire safety guidance for business. Download the guidance document for small and medium places of assembly. And if you need any specific advice we will do our best to help you on this forum. Good luck!

[PhilB]

What if when the notice was served the premises was being used by a chain smoking petrol bomb juggler!!!

The situation may have now changed with the new occupier....just ask the FRS before you potentially waste some money. The requirements of the notice may no longer be appropriate.

During the consultation procedure some of us recommended that notices should be local land charges as they used to be under the housing act. If that was the case the notice would have come to light during the sale of the property.

Having said that all the solicitor had to do was contact the FRS and asked to see the public register of notices as indeed could anyone who intends purchasing a property.

I would still kick your solicitor up the back-side!

[Andyp]

Thanks for your help.

Kurnel I have the guide you are refering to and it has helped regarding a dead end situation. Main issues were previous FRA was inadquate i agree with no test records of anything, emergency lights, training.

 I agree with most of the enforcement notice and have started to get them corrected but still have a few issues that dont agree with.

1. Fire alarm is deemed unsuitable for premise because of the stereo. The practise before and now was for the member of staff to turn off stereo on activation. The FSO was told this and was ok about it. Now he's been seconded else where and the new FSO wants a relay put in. Its not a PA system as such just 2 speakers in a space of 21m x 15m.

2. Understairs  storage cupboard in a protected stairwell. Currently has louvre doors which is not acceptable & public could get in there. under a risk assessment we have dug out all the items just to check for sources of ignition, there none, the stairwell has smoke detection top & bottom of the stairwell and there is no souce of ignition there. Is there a issue with me upgrading the door to cupboard with a door that is locked but accessable to staff.

background on me serving ff of 16 rs. I dont claim to know alot but I'm not afraid to ask for help. The FRA i have done is with the PAS79 2007 and i have found very helpful. I have got a lot of information from this site already which I apprieciate.

One last thing does anyone have a formula for working out the capacity of a premise, maxium no of customers.

[PhilB]

A premise is an an idea or theory on which a statement or action is based. I do not know of a formula for calculating its capacity.


A premises is another matter, take a look at your usable floor area, that is the area left after you discount unusable areas such as stairways, corridors, toilets etc.

Then divide the area by a floor space factor, 1 is probably a good factor in this example. So if you have a floor area of 50 divide by one equals 50 people.

You must then make sure that the number of exits are sufficient, you may find that the exits determine the capacity regardles of floor space.

[kurnal]

Is there any chance that the staff may not hear the fire alarm because the music is too loud? To be sure of your ground you could borrow a sound meter ( Maplin sell one for £30- ok for a one off) and show whether the alarm is 5dBA louder than the music on the maximum volume level that you use. You then put in a management procedure to ensure that the volume is never higher than this. Is so theres no problem. Otherwise you could provide a strobe light that flashes, on operation of the fire alarm to signal to staff to shut off the music when the fire alarm sounds (if a staff member is in close proximity at all times to the amplifier of course.)- I often do this in a night club where mobile DJs bring in their own equipment.

You then write these procedures into your emergency plan and train staff accordingly.

Storage under stairs- if the stairs are needed to be a protected route from other parts of the building (this depends on its use and size) I would ensure that the door, partition and soffit are fire resisting and fit a smoke detector inside. Otherwise secure it and just use the cupboard  for the storage of  non combustible materials.  

Phil you should be on the English Language forum. Why are some people so pedantic and stick so doggedly to the Oxford dictionary definitions for the use of certain words and yet generally recognise that the English language is a dynamic tool for communication and is constantly evolving - especially with regard to the adoption of slang? Promises, premises, promise, premise, demise?  I do often use the term demise in my risk assessments of premises with multiple occupiers and have never been really sure if this is correct.

[PhilB]

Trust me Kurnal, premise is incorrect.........and I hope you don't use slang in your risk assessments......me old china plate!

[Andyp]

Kurnel max travel distance for the counter staff to turn off stereo is 2m I find that is exceptable, having tested the alarm the stereo has been marked no higher than this and it has been put in th FRA. As for the the staircase, it leads to the toilets and to a party room which isnt in use all the time, so other than the public using the toilets i can see no problem with this remedy.

For the useable space there is a 15m x 10m play frame roughly in the middle. I'm assuming the useable space is the floor space around the frame?

Thank you again guys

[kurnal]

OK Andy I can go along with that, so long as the volume setting was 5dBA lower than the fire alarm nobody can argue.

The only possible concern is the party room- if the stairs are the only way in and out of the party room depending on size and always keeping things in proportion I think it may be necessary to protect the under stairs cupboard or only use it for non combustible materials (in my opinion of course).

[Andyp]

I will double check this week re the alarm. Just to put you in the picture Kurnel about the party room. from the end wall to the entrance door then down the stairs to the exit door of the buliding is a travel distance of 19m, using the guide and the suggested travel distances table on pg 65, Where only a single escape route is provided, 18m in a normal fire risk area. The risk in the party room is one wall heater & a radio, with a party in place that risk rises to party candles & matches for a short space of time. The toilets have wall heaters and hand dryers. the stairwell has smoke detection top and bottom and outside the party room is a co2 and water extinguisher. The guide refers to dead end condtions to use one of the solutions was to fit AFD in that area, which was already in place. I hope this makes it clearer for you to picture and why I think my answer to the storeage is acceptable. Size of party room 11m x 5m narrowing to 3.5 at one end.

[PhilB]

Phil you should be on the English Language forum. Why are some people so pedantic and stick so doggedly to the Oxford dictionary definitions for the use of certain words and yet generally recognise that the English language is a dynamic tool for communication and is constantly evolving - especially with regard to the adoption of slang? Promises, premises, promise, premise, demise?  I do often use the term demise in my risk assessments of premises with multiple occupiers and have never been really sure if this is correct.

I thought demise meant the decease of a royal or princely person or the death of any illustrious person.

I recently came across a risk assessment completed by a "Fire Safety Consultant" that mentioned sauces of fuel and sauces of ignition...chocolate or strawberry sauces I wonder!!

[messy]

I recently came across a risk assessment completed by a "Fire Safety Consultant" that mentioned sauces of fuel and sauces of ignition...chocolate or strawberry sauces I wonder!


Maybe he had written the FRA on some paper used previously for a shopping list.

[kurnal]

Hi Andy. You have obviously given a fair bit of thought to your risk assessment and it is as you say a small premises/premise/not a demise (cos you occupy it all) oh blow it- building.

I dont say your logic to argue on the basis of travel distance is wrong, I do think there can be a difference between horizontal and vertical parts of escape routes  - if for example there is a fire on the ground floor and the staircase is open, the smoke and heat will naturally rise and affect the upper floor first of all - in other words affecting the very people most remote from the exit and most vulnerable due to height,  first of all. So is it appropriate to use the same travel distances when both hrizontal and vertical travel is involved?

But present your risk assessment as it is, you have thought it through and the fire officer will be sympathetic even if he disagrees with it. Risk assessments in existing small premises (ah it works this time) are always the most difficult as it  can be difficult to keep things in proportion. And thats all it is about- reducing the risk to life from fire as far as reasonably practicable. Only a judge can decide whether you have done that.