Do I have to fit new doors?

[brayman]

Our office building has four office suites opening onto a common hall/landing and is about 25 yers old. Prior to the new Order the building had a Fire Certificate and thus the fire doors were adequate, they did not have smoke seals. We have had a Professional (expensive) Fire Risk Assessment and no mention of doors being inadequate was made. This week we had a visit from the local Fire Safety Officer who is now saying that the doors need to be replaced with FD30S doors with smoke seals.
Is the Order retrospective then?
Reading other posts I see that if I fit new doors I should also fit new frames! I can't see anything in the order itslef that specifies door requirements.
Any advice on how to progress this without undue expense would be appreciated.

[kurnal]

You really should go back to your risk assessment and ask their opinion- after all you have paid for their professional advice. If this sort of situation arises, as part of the job your assessor should discuss any difference of opinion with the fire authority on your behalf- after all the fire officer appears to be saying that the risk assessment for which you have paid is not suitable or sufficient?

There is no real reason why a proper fire door installed to the old standards without smoke seals in an office building should not continue to perform an adequate role in your fire protection measures.

They should be provided with three hinges, a self closing device, and be a good fit in the frame with a maximum gap of say 3-4mm around the sides and top of lthe leaf and frame and a maximum gap at the base of about 8-10mm, and close snugly against the rebates. Only if special circumstances are present such as sleeping accommodation or a mixed risk environment, or if the doors were no longer in good condition or a good fit in their frames should there be any compunction to install new doors or fire and smoke seals.

[Auntie LIn]

Brayman - you say the doors don't have smoke seals, but don't mention fire seals, so I'm guessing that they might have them?   I don't think you can be obliged to meet today's standards with yesterday's technology, but, if you want to give a measure of smoke control, there are some good retro-fit smoke seals around which will do the job, and won't cost a fortune.   If that saves you having to throw more good money at your professional fire risk assessor, I guess it will be worth it.   If you want to let me have your address, ASDMA (Architectural and Specialist Door Manufacturers Association) have produced a simple (free) leaflet on fire doors and the RRO, and I can send you a copy (or three).

[AnthonyB]

I would agree with the above - unless the area was of high risk, the doorset (i.e. frame, door, hinges, etc) was damaged or worn or not even compliant with former standards I wouldn't insist on renewal as a priority.

However where old style doors are seen they are still noted on the risk assessment with a recommendation to replace upon refurbishment. (we work in the property management sector, so suites in multi-occupancies are often ripped out every few years and new doorsets can be included)

[PhilB]

There is a requirement under the fire safety order to take steps to reduce the risk. Also when implementing the preventive and protective measures you should adapt to technological progress and that may be interpreted as fitting smoke seals and intumescent strips if they would reduce the risk.

There should be no precriptive requirements but I would expect a competent fire risk assessor to advise you if your doors needed to be upgraded.

I note that you say you had a professional (expensive) risk assessment carried out. Please dont confuse expensive with suitable and sufficient. There  are many assessors out there who really shouldn't be let loose......check their qualifications, if they have offered poor advice ask for a refund.

[brayman]

Thank you all for your repsonses, I will follow up with the assessors and Auntie Lin's offer.

[brayman]

The Risk Assessment Company say that the doors meet regulations but recommend fitting new doors! They aren't keen on taking on the Fure Safety Officer.

[Chris Houston]

Don't be frightened to engage them in debate with this.  The decision on the acceptability of the doors lies with the person in charge of the premises, not the Fire Service.

[jokar]

As has been written above new doors are not the answer if retrofitting strips and seals is acceptable to you.

[CivvyFSO]

Are the doors protecting any sort of dead-end condition/staircase? Is there any detection involved?

[brayman]

No they are purely to gain access to open plan offices from a common area.
There are smoke detectors in the hall/landing area. The building is about 25 years old.
Thanks for all your considerations, I'm away for a few days now but will pick up anything further when I get back.
Thanks again.
Ian

[CivvyFSO]

But does that common area form part of the means of escape for people on a floor above?

Would be nice to see some simple plans.

[brayman]

Yes, the common hall/landing is also the means of escape.

Imagine a hall with a room to the left and a room to the right, a set of stairs with exactly the same on the first floor. Pretty basic lego design.

[Big T]

I would say that if the doors fit snuggly within their frames and close properly on closers then I would note this in your assessment with a view to replace when refurbishment occurs and live with the residual risk.

The FSO will always go with the prescriptive measure of "replace all doors and retro fit seals" etc. I'm sure like me you would love the budget to allow every door in your premises to be FD30S but this isn't always a realistic option.

From my perspective the doors have been suitable for 25 years. They complied at the time of installation. The Legislation isn't retrospective so you have to make you own decision about it. Look at the quality of the existing door and ensure they are still in good working condition whilst assessing them.

What is your fire saftey strategy like? What is training like? Do you have drills regularly? etc? All these questions will come into making an informed decision about whether the doors need upgrading.

[brayman]

The doors all close on closers and fit pretty snugly.
Training is an issue as each office suite is occupied by different companies. That is something I am having to work on! We have two new tenants moving in so that should help.
Certianly if any doors were to be changed we would go for the current requierments.
I though it was a bit rich receing a deficiency notice rather than constructive advice.