Fire fighter access to secure buildings

[Chris Houston]

I wonder if others could share their experiences if they have any similar to the one I will describe:

FTSE100 Client has a data warehouse (a bit IT room with some rather expensive and business critical computers in it).  Security of the warehouse is taken very seriously.  Visitors are strictly controlled and there are full height turnstyles.  

Fire Service has demanded the turnstyle removal, as fire fighters in BA cannot get inside easily in event of fire.

Now, there must be lots of sites in the UK (bank vaults, casino secure areas) where access will be restricted, even in the event of a confirmed fire.  

How have others got the balance between allowing fire fighters in to fight a fire, but maintaining security?  How have others addressed the concerns that the fire and rescue service have made?

[Big T]

I'm not being funny but the whole purpose of BA training is to allow BA wearers to manoeuvre through difficult obstacles. Could you suggest that the BA weraers caryy their ba set infront of them as they pass through the doors and then put it back on once in (obviously remianing under air during the process) If I used to be able to get through a concrete tube with my set pushed out infront of me i'm sure a firefighter can negotiate a revolving door.

That aside you could have a non automatic swing door provided immediately adjacent to the revolving door. that releases on alarm or upon breaking a green door release button or perhaps a fire brigade access key similar to electronic door overides in residential blocks?

[nearlythere]

Chris. If, as part of the dynamic risk assessment, the Office in Charge of the incident considers that there is an unneccessary risk to personnel by attempting to gain access by the turn styles they will try to gain an alternative safer means of entry. This may cause a delay in dealing with the situation. It could be very beneficial to your client's business, if he or she played ball with the F&S Service in this regard and I have no doubt that a solution could be reached which suits all.

I would hope that ".......demanded the turnstyle removal,..." is an over exaggeration of the situation.

[Dinnertime Dave]

I assume that it is only the normal way in/out that is provided with turnstyles other doors will be security doors without turnstyles. Can the BA wearer use another route?

Reminds me of Steptoe and Son. if you haven`t seen the episode then 'guess you had to be there'

[Mr. P]

Chris, I have experience from both sides of the fence on this one.  As a firefighter I trained with others to overcome entry/exit risks/hazards on our patch such as these.  Owners were usually quite accomodating.  However, in one property there were also break out doors to the side of the turnstiles.  Security is usually to stop unwanteds from getting in, but there is also a need for controlling those exiting. The above case, the side doors were controlled by security staff and secondary measures were in place for accountability.
Later with my fire safety hat on I was involved in an extention to the same build.  Additional exits were required and were then remote from the main security office.  This worked well in evacuation as the user had plans to cover use of these exits and staff trained to give security (stop persons returning or unauthorised entry).  A fire in the build could then be approached by a safe entry route by firefighters because key personel would open up unaffected exits.
Hope that was of help.
The RR(FS)O covers this still I believe as we look for measures provided for the safety/protection of FF's.  Their enrty and egress (and in emergency) is assessed.

[Midland Retty]

Your client needs to appreciate that whilst  turnstiles can be negotiated by Crews wearing Breathing Apparatus it might cause them unecessary delays in getting to the scene of fire. So its got to be a balance, and risk assessed strategy they employ.

What is more likely - a break in or a fire? Which one would result in the biggest loss for the company?

Bypass security doors are an option controlled by security personnel, or as already stated firefighters switch.

A fire service Incident Commander may not commit crews into a building without good access and egress being available in case of BA Emergencies etc (unless of course a life is at risk which would be different) but for simply trying to save bricks and mortar they may just watch it burn to the ground!

[Mike Buckley]

Just a thought if a fire fighter in BA has difficulty getting through the turnstile, how are two firefighters in BA plus casualty going to get through them?

[Chris Houston]

What is more likely - a break in or a fire? Which one would result in the biggest loss for the company?

A break-in is more likely, to date (the collective brains of the insurance industiry) can't find an example of a fire in one of these places, but they are theft and targets of malicious folks.

The fire and the theft could easily could easily costs hundreds of millions of pounds of loss, due to the results of the IT systems being down.

[Big T]

Just a thought if a fire fighter in BA has difficulty getting through the turnstile, how are two firefighters in BA plus casualty going to get through them?

Hopefully getting out wouldn't be an issue. You would hope that there would be other escape routes wouldn't you? I hope they wouldn't have got permission to have just one exit on a turnstile, there would have to be other fire exits?

[Chris Houston]

I guess that there is only 1 way in and out at normal times, but there are fire exits just like any normal building.

[Mike Buckley]

Yes there would be other fire exits but usually you tend to go back along the route you have entered by as a) you know it, b) you know it is safe and c) you are less likely to get lost. This is without guidelines, if you are using guidelines then it will lead you back to the entry you came in through.

Remember if you are in BA in smoke visability is zero, you cannot see the fire exit signs, most of the time you are lucky if you can see your feet. Under the current regime the most likely reason to enter a commercial building that is on fire is for search and rescue and you are more likely to find a fire exit by accident