Storage of powered wheelchairs

[Big T]

All,

It is proposed that a resident stores their electric wheelchair in the main entrance of their building(under the stairs)

The building is 2 storey and has approximately 8 flats in it.

I am not for it, but if the charging of the batteries is not carried out in the stairwell should I live with the residual risk? I am aware that some residential care homes allow the buggies to be stroed under the staircases, but has anyone dealt with it? do they catch fire on their own? What is the risk of the battery catching fire etc.

Any links to info on this?

Also anybody written anything to the occupants of resi care homes about strorage and use etc?

[kurnal]

An increasingly common problem and the sting in the tail is that at the moment the under stairs area will probably hold one mobility aid with no problems. But as more and more tenants see the benefit and the cost comes down you will end up with more than you have space for and thats when corridors become obstructed, this is the problem in one local authority I look after. At first they said yes but as numbers increased they then had to say no to others which has led to huge ill feeling and resentment.

We decided that the rule should be made that no mobility aids should be stored in corridors or staircases, but ok to store them in individual flats. If you were to make a rule that it could be stored but not charged in the stairs, then where would it be charged and why cant it be stored there?

In several cases we have been able to convert former refuse stores or office accommodation into a storage and charging area.

[PhilB]

I dealt with a similar but very different situation recently. It is a block of individual flats with warden assistance living on site. They wanted to store and charge mobility aids in corridor.

They need to store and charge them somewhere, corridor is not best place I agree, but in this particular case it was acceptable.

Obviously corridors are not ideal as they introduce a source of ignition, a fire load and an obstruction.

The solution opted for was.......mark area of corridor that must be kept clear, corridor was wide enough for that. Warden can monitor and make sure tenants comply. Ensure chargers are PAT tested and records kept, again warden to monitor.

If there was a fire elsewhere in the building escape routes are therefore clear. If there was a problem in the corridor because the flats were built to current building regs with adequate compartmentation... they could stay put. Each flat had alternative means of escape direct to outside if required.

I appreciate that this is an entirely different scenario to that described by Big T, and I believe that as we live longer and longer this will be a common problem of the future.

Alternative would be to store and charge scooters within individual dwellings...more of a hazard I would argue for the occupants both as a source of ignition and obstructing means of escape within flat.

[firelawmac]

what about the likelihood of the chair user being oxygen dependant, therefore the added hazard that would need to be addressed on the fire risk assessment (Fatal fire in Dumfries with O2 and wheel chair in dwelling recently), also there is a 7.2.d issue for firefighter safety surely? RP to ensure FRS knows about any risks introduced that could lead to a different tactical approach to the fire attack.

ok so a bit off track i know but thats the nature of the firenet forum beast i suppose!!!

[Ashley Wood]

A sheltered scheme in my area recently had a charger catch fire that was charging the batteries for a buggy! The buggy and charger were in the entrance hall of the sheltered scheme! The organisation concerned had been told by the FRA (me) to make provisions for the storage of the buggies, and are in the process of building a purpose built unit. They have 12 buggies on this scheme!

[CivvyFSO]

I have also had a similar issue recently. Scooters were being charged up in a wide corner of a corridor.

With a stay put policy in place and good compartmentation/FR in place as needed, what is the worse risk?

a) A scooter catching fire in a residents room.
b) A scooter catching fire in the corridor outside the residents room.
c) A scooter catching fire in a protected staircase. (Under the stair and out of the way)

The scooter in the protected staircase keeps the residents safe for the longest time. (but it clearly needs to not be the only protected staircase.)

It goes against the usual way of thinking, but a stay put policy changes the problem imo.

[Big T]

The worst thing that could occur (that in my experience does occur) is that the occupants are generally nosey and flowt the stay put policy in these types of buildings.

Also you need to consider guests, persons who are in the common areas who can't stay put and are instructed by the fire action notices to evcuate when in a common area at the time of the fire.

I've recommended the scooter park is extended and in the mean time they are not to be stored in common areas.

[Ashley Wood]

As BigT says, a lot of elderly residents wander about to see if 'Flo or Edith' are all right. You only have to ask the scheme manager and they will tell you this!

[val]

Ashley and Big T

This is an interesting take on 'stay-put' policies which are becoming increasingly seen as the panacea for sheltered housing.
My particular thinking is that 'stay-put' are more to do with excessive numbers of false alarms, (which can be addressed) and the chaos they cause, rather than any real belief that in a fire the residents are actually safer staying within their flats.
We all know horror stories of poorly constructed premises with walls stopping at false ceiling level.
Stay-put is a bit of a con to avoid the tricky question of getting ederly or disabled people out of a burning building safely.
If it is well known that 'Flo or Edith' go for a look then does that mean it is 'reasonably foreseeable?'

[jokar]

You have to change the fire alarm system with defend in place strategies to staff alert in areas where it operates, otherwise you will get nosey Flo or Edith.

The strategy has worked for years in residential flats, what is the difference in any other place?

[Big T]

thats all well and good if you have onsite staff with 24 hour cover. the reality is that in most buildings there may only be a warden 3 times a week to check up on everyone.

My point what that CivvyFSO shouldn't assume that because a building has a stay put policy you can store something that is combustible with its own "on board" ignition source in a protcted staircase. Sheltered and resi care homes have old people living in them who are inherently inquisitve and as such will always flowt a stay put policy. Knowing that the elderly are like this should lead the assessor to insure that all mens of escape are clear at all times regardless of the buildings evacuation strategy.

[CivvyFSO]

Playing devils advocate a bit here because part of me agrees with you: Imagine a long sheltered housing building. 1 protected staircase each side, protected corridor and suitable FR to rooms. If you HAD to set an area on fire inside the building, which area would give the residents more time to escape?

[Big T]

Point taken. but the purpose is stop fire getting into the escape route not to stop fire getting out of it. An FSO would throw the book at me if I allowed that.....

[Redone]

Got the same problem...  also with hoists.

Where more than one staircase is available, we do use the space under the stairs, area marked off and rigidly controlled, RCB in place plus CO2, DS and FD30S provided, regular PAT testing regime in place.  Drills have proved we can move residents away from the risk area. Staff have live fire training on CO2's, FA happy.  It's our risk and we manage it!

As the numbers of these appliances increase we have adapted a sectional domestic type garage as a charging room.

[jokar]

Big T, whilst I agree that it is a problem, the solution is not down to the assessor but down to those with responsibilty.  An assessor can only auidt and then assess the fire risks and recommend solutions to reduce the risk to a residual level.  If those with responsibility do nothing then so be it.  It may come down to having a large area, one of the flats taken out of service to use as a storage and charging area with additional protection.